Hi Horace, Sorry for the empty reply, my finger slipped.
>> There will be no such delay, that was my point, except of course >> the subnanosecond speed of light delay for Coulomb forces to act >> across a few tens of cm, even if it takes 50 milliseconds for the >> "whatever" to cross the gap so that one might expect 50 >> milliseconds or more would elapse before current comes out the >> bottom of the pan. > But that was *my* point. If threads are in place, there is a > conductor across the gap, thus the signal should travel fast across > the gap, not having to wait for insulated drops to carry the signal. This is not the point I was making. The point I was making was on the contrary that even if the current is carried by slow drops or ions or whatever which take ages (milliseconds) to cross the gap, the signal will still cross at the speed of light (subnanosecond). Let me know if what I wrote previously makes sense in this light, otherwise I can explain. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Filament ion jets On Jun 6, 2007, at 12:08 AM, Michel Jullian wrote: > No mix-up (I knew you meant the filaments) but a misunderstanding > about what you want to measure probably. Your use of the word "armature" in this context was confusing. > > I had understood from your expression "the ability to instantly > transmit" that you were expecting a delay between emitter current > onset (= HV onset) and collector current onset, maybe due to the > flight time of whatever constitutes or initiates the filament. By "instantly transmit" I meant the delay would not require transit of drops carrying different potentials. There would be a large difference in signal size between when a molecular thread is present and when it is not. If and when the thread, or more likely threads, are in place the signal will transmit along the threads with the transmission characteristics of the threads. > There will be no such delay, that was my point, except of course > the subnanosecond speed of light delay for Coulomb forces to act > across a few tens of cm, even if it takes 50 milliseconds for the > "whatever" to cross the gap so that one might expect 50 > milliseconds or more would elapse before current comes out the > bottom of the pan. But that was *my* point. If threads are in place, there is a conductor across the gap, thus the signal should travel fast across the gap, not having to wait for insulated drops to carry the signal. Also, I assumed the signal through an air gap should have significantly differing and readily distinguishable characteristics, among them a highly reduced signal size. The circuit is either "make" or "break", thus the signal onset wold be abrupt for a circuit designed for the transmission characteristics of the filaments. Consider these quotes: "I'm using an old negative ion generator as the power supply. It puts out 10uA maximum, and maybe 10KV to 15KV." at http://amasci.com/weird/unusual/airhard.html. "- I connected a microamp meter in series with the plate. It indicated zero. When I let the other HV wire create one furrow in the mist, the meter indicated zero UA. When I brought the cable close, so there were maybe 50 to 70 furrows being drawn along the mist, the meter started flickering, indicating approx. 0.5uA. These ion- streams, if that's what they are, are each delivering an electric current in the range of 10 nanoamperes or less. Jeeze. No wonder nobody ever notices them." at http://amasci.com/weird/unusual/airexp.html. Assuming a gap of about an inch for "up close" it sounds like the resistance of the filaments is about R = V/I = (10^4 V)/(10^-8 A) = 10^12 ohm. If there were 50 of them though, as above, there would be a .5 uA signal, which would be readily detected. Might take a pre- amp to get it cleanly though. I don't think you would get a signal like that though an air gap from a fine point. Having looked at signals through a 10 m tygon tube of flowing electrolyte, and seeing their dependence on flow rate, I would expect some surprises regarding the signals that would be transmitted through such filaments, assuming they exist. Anyway, moving on ... "In pure water, sensitive equipment can detect a very slight electrical conductivity of 0.055 µS/cm at 25°C." See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water#Electrical_conductivity This gives us an estimate of the filament cross sectional area: A = 1/((1E12 ohm/inch)*(0.055E-6 S/cm)) = 4.6E-9 m^2 and radius: r = (A/(2 Pi))^(1/2) = 2.7E-5 m and diameter: d = 2*r = 5.4E-5 m = 5.4 E-3 cm about the thickness of a human hair. So, the filament is over 10,000 water molecules wide if this is correct. If flow is moving at the top end speed Bill estimated, about 10 MPH, we get a flow rate per filament of: F = (4.6E-9 m^2)*(10 MPH) = 2E-8 m^3/s = 0.02 cm^3/sec or about 1.2 cm^3 per minute, which sounds a bit high from the description, but maybe very roughly in the ballpark. Regards, Horace Heffner >> >> On Jun 5, 2007, at 3:28 PM, Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>> If I understand correctly what you want to do it wouldn't work >>> Horace, the signal would be transmitted instantly regardless of the >>> carrier velocity. Think of the gap as a capacitor, any current >>> entering one armature leaves simultaneously the other armature, >>> independently of any "real" current between the armatures.
