Woops, sorry Alan. I should be more careful. On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Horace Heffner <hheff...@mtaonline.net>wrote:
> Hi Colin, > > Alan Fletcher gets the credit for that scenario. > > Best regards, > > Horace Heffner > http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ > > > > On Sep 16, 2011, at 4:39 PM, Colin Hercus wrote: > > Hi Horace, > > Your 3rd scenario may be right. From mats Report > "According to Andrea Rossi the increased > dimension is due to a larger volume inside where the water is heated, > approximately 30 liters, and a larger heat-exchanger with a greater > surface which should result in a more effective heat transfer from the > reactor to the circulating water and *also in additional heating of the > steam > after vaporization." > > *Just strange how this works at the outlet and it also means the pressure > may be 1bar as suggested by Mats. This will change a lot of the energy > calculations. > > Colin > > On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 1:36 AM, Alan J Fletcher <a...@well.com> wrote: > >> I'm still trying to figure out what's going on! >> >> The outlet port is very high on the unit ... if it was just the overflow >> from a kettle boiler then there wouldn't be any room for steam. >> I might have to go back to thinking of it as a Tube boiler, where the flow >> of the steam carries the water with it. >> >> But in the early stages of the process the overflow water clearly pulses, >> just a fraction of a second later than the sound of the pump. That implies >> it's directly connected to the incoming water. It's a kettle again. >> >> I've put up a few of my calculator results at >> http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_sep11_b.php >> >> It's clearly producing SOMETHING ... but how MUCH? >> How does it get the 130C at the instrument port and 50% fluid water at the >> outlet? >> >> I think there are three ways of reaching 130C. >> >> a) The internal pressure is 3 Bars, and the quality is 0.5. The water and >> the steam are in equilibrium at 130C. >> >> As the 130C steam leaves the system the pressure drops to 1 Bar and >> the temperature drops to 100C >> (adiabatic expansion -- a vertical line on the temperature-enthalpy >> diagram) -- and it might start condensing. >> >> But the 130C water would probably flash into steam, and in the process >> cool down to 100C. >> So do we end up with MORE or LESS water than we had inside the eCat? >> >> b) The internal pressure is 1 Bar (atmospheric, plus a little >> back-pressure), as a single chamber. >> >> In this case, the only way you can reach 130C is for ALL the water to >> evaporate, and for the steam to be super-heated. >> >> The 130C 100% Dry superheated steam leaves the eCat. But to get the >> observed 50% fluid water, this has to cool and condense in about 10cm. >> I don't think you can get rid of enough heat that quickly : it need >> nucleation sites, which will be available only on the wall of the tube. >> >> c) The eCat is structured as TWO chambers : the first is a kettle boiler >> at 100C (1 Bar). Any excess fluid overflows directly, at 100C. >> The steam component then goes into a second chamber, where it is >> superheated to 130C at 1 Bar. Because it is a separate chamber >> it does not have to be in equilibrium with the water. >> >> Note : this separation of boiler and superheater is very common in >> traditional boiler design. >> >> WARNING : needs a non-proportional font like courier !!! >> >> Port >> | | >> *------------------------------* *----* >> | Superheated 1 Bar | | | >> | Steam 130C ==> | | outlet hose >> 95% Dry | *------------------------ >> 1 Bar 100C | ^ *=====================* Superheated steam =====> >> Steam | | | CORE | 130C >> |~~~~~| |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> overflow fluid 100C >> | | | *---------* ~ *----- >> | *=====================* | | ~ | >> ~~~~~ ====| Water | | ~ | >> Inlet | Boil 100C | Water Trap >> 100C >> *--------------------------------------* >> >> >> This 130C steam also exits through the hose, and may (but need not) >> condense. >> It does not have time to reach equilibrium with the 100C overflow fluid >> over the 10cm distance. >> >> The main reason I DON'T like this is that the outlet is so high on the >> eCat. >> >> Missing measurements: >> >> a) Pressure at the instrument port (to confirm it is 1 Bar) >> b) Temperature of the overflow fluid water -- should be 100C >> c) Temperature of the steam exiting the eCat -- if it was superheated at >> 1 Bar then it should still be at 130C >> >> >> I can't figure out the "dumping" of the water at the end, either. Is it >> 100C water, or is it 130C water? 1 Bar or 3 Bars ? >> >> I've never seen 25L of boiling water dumped through a tap, so I don't know >> what it should look like. >> The general argument is the same as for the hose outlet -- 130C water >> would flash VERY rapidly. >> >> ps -- This is a first///// second draft of what I'm thinking. I'll >> change my mind again tomorrow! >> >> >> > > > > > >
