On Tue, 31 Jan 2012, Randy Wuller wrote:
This post prompted a reply from Maryugo. Since MY is banned here and at
the Defkalion site and since I converse with MY (by email) occasionally,
she sent me her reply to Bill Beaty which I presume he received and did
not elect to post.
Yourself or "MY" can put it online and post the link here.
There appears to be a misconception though. My message wasn't intended as
an attack needing defense. I probably wasn't clear enough, but it was
supposed to be: "AHA, you're a Skeptic!"
Does 'MY' self-identify as a woo-woo? As a Believer, crackpot, fringe-
follower, Fortean, Paranormalist, etc.? No? After all, Vortex-L is a
woo-woo forum: Believers only, Skeptics very decidely NOT welcome here.
However I don't ban the Debunkers outright, and only remove them if they
become noisy enough to draw complaints, to turn the user base against
them, or even to cause people to start unsubscribing. Besides being
contrary to the purpose of the forum, Believer-Skeptic battles here are
guaranteed to be endless almost by definition, since they'd only ever halt
if the Skeptic decides to renounce their own identity and come over to
join us in the enemy camp.
Discussions on vort critical of claims are fine if they're taking place
between fellow crackpots. :)
The text for "Rule 2" has the link which explains in more detail:
MORE AT http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.txt (please read.)
Here it is below, with a few more lines added to clarify...
(((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/
beaty, chem washington edu Research Engineer
billb, amasci com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74
206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700
http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.html
To put it bluntly, Vortex-L is a forum for "true believers."
People of the "CSICOP Skeptic" or scoffer/debunker persuasion are
tolerated but not welcomed. For yet another definition of the two types
of people, see the excellent article in SKEPTIC, V5 #2, "Skepticism and
Credulity: finding the balance between Type I and Type II errors" by
B. Wisdom.
The article discusses the philosophy behind two types of mental attitude:
1. 'Scoffers:' those who, in order to reject all falsehoods, don't mind
accidentally rejecting truths.
2. 'Believers:' those who, in order to accept all truths, don't mind
accidentally accepting falsehoods.
A few rare individuals fall between these two descriptions. However,
there is significant polarization as well: whose who are solidly in the
either the "Skeptic" or the "Woo-woo" camp greatly outnumber those who
succeed in remaining between the two.
I have observed that each highly-polarized camp holds their opponents in
contemptuous disrespect bordering on outright hatred. The Scoffers
regard the opposite camp as dangerously gullible "true believers" who'd
allow Science to be damaged by irrational beliefs in such things as UFOs,
psi phenomena, Free Energy, etc. And the Believers regard the other side
as dangerously closeminded "pathological skeptics" who stifle curiousity,
block free investigations, and "preserve" science from the crazy time-
wasting projects of folks like Galileo, Goddard, the Wrights, Margulis,
etc. One side worships at the altar of Khun's Normal Science, while the
other kneels before the holy "Khunian Revolution" shrine.
A few years ago the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup was increasingly becoming
a battleground for the two types. Those who reasoned that "we must study
cold fusion because there is some evidence that it is real" were
constantly attacked by those who believe "we must reject cold fusion
because there is little evidence for it." And vice versa. Particularly
shameful was the amount of hostility including sneering ridicule,
emotional arguments, arrogant self-blindness, and great use of the low,
unscientific techniques outlined in ZEN AND THE ART OF DEBUNKERY.
(See <a href="http://amasci.com/weird/wclose.html";>http://amasci.com/weird/wclose.html</a>)
I started this group as an openminded "quiet harbor" for interested
parties to discuss the Griggs Rotor away from the believer-skeptic uproar
on sci.physics.fusion. It quickly mutated into a "believers forum" for
discussion of cold fusion and other anomalous physics. I created Rule #2
to prevent this list from becoming another battleground like the
sci.physics.fusion newsgroup. Be warned: if you self-identify as
non-Believer "anti-woo," then you could be removed from the forum at any
time. Vortex-L is intended to be a discussion area for researchers who
have little patience with Kuhnian Normal Science, who practice extreme
openmindedness, and who will "accept falsehoods in order to avoid
rejecting truths."
I believe that many scientists reject new ideas because they unknowingly
maintain an illusory worldview which is based on concensus of colleagues,
rather than upon evidence, and as a result they become irrational. They
become very intolerant of all ideas which violate that consensus, and will
instantly and thoughtlessly reject the evidence supporting such ideas.
This forum is for those with a low tolerance for anything resembling
mob-rule, and a high tolerance for "crazy ideas."
Vortex-L is for those who see great value in removing their usual mental
filters by provisionally accepting the validity of "impossible" phenomena
in order to test them. This excellent quote found by Gene Mallove clearly
states the problem, and reveals the need for "true believers" in a science
community otherwise ruled by conservative scoffers:
"It is really quite amazing by what margins competent but conservative
scientists and engineers can miss the mark, when they start with the
preconceived idea that what they are investigating is impossible. When
this happens, the most well-informed men become blinded by their
prejudices and are unable to see what lies directly ahead of them."
- Arthur C. Clarke, 1963
So, on Vortex-L we intentionally suspend the disbelieving attitude of
those who follow the stereotypical "scientific method." While this does
leave us open to the great personal embarrassment of repeatedly falling
for hoaxes and delusional thinking, we tolerate this problem in our quest
to consider ideas and phenomena which would otherwise be rejected out of
hand without a fair hearing. There are diamonds in the filth, and we see
that we cannot hunt for diamonds without getting dirty.
Note that "small-s skepticism" of the openminded sort is perfectly
acceptable on Vortex-L. We crackpots don't want to be *completely*
self-deluding. :) The ban here is aimed at Debunkers, and at "certain
disbelief" of the superior and archly hostile sort, and at the "Skeptic"
who angrily disbelieves all that is not solidly proved true, while
carefully rejecting all new data and observations which conflict with the
widely accepted theories of the time.
"Every fact of science was once damned. Every invention was considered
impossible. Every discovery was a nervous shock to some orthodoxy.
Every artistic innovation was denounced as fraud and folly. The entire
web of culture and 'progress,' everything on earth that is man-made and
not given to us by nature, is the concrete manifestation of some man's
refusal to bow to Authority. We would own no more, know no more, and be
no more than the first apelike hominids if it were not for the
rebellious, the recalcitrant, and the intransigent. As Oscar Wilde truly
said, 'Disobedience was man's Original Virtue' -Robert Anton Wilson
((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billbeskimo.com http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA 206-543-6195 sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L
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