This is a and more complete criticism of Penrose ideas on consciousness. http://www.mth.kcl.ac.uk/~llandau/Homepage/Math/penrose.html
Giovanni On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Giovanni Santostasi <gsantost...@gmail.com>wrote: > This is not a complete criticism but it basically summarizes the main > point, there is no need to introduce quantum mechanics to explain > consciousness. We have not yet a full explanation but everything we know > about neuroscience points to an explanation that would need just classical > physics (networks and dynamical systems). > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=Gq9ldQys3_E&NR=1 > > Giovanni > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Statewide Homes Peter B < > ddc...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> Can theology and our science ever fully agree >> >> Can our little brains fully understand Gods mind >> >> Can knowledge fully understand the things of the Spirit >> >> Knowledge says The Spirit spoke through a donkey , is God part mule >> >> knowledge says He protects us and gathers us and hides us under his >> wings , is He part chook >> >> knowledge says He organised his own son to be Tortued and killed , is He >> part maniac >> >> >> >> This I trust , after examineing his words and actions >> >> Jesus said to Phillip ...."when you see me , you see the Father " not >> long after these words Jesus let them do what they wanted . They crucified >> him >> >> Knowledge says , I now have eternal life , His love has bought me >> >> Science is great , I enjoy it . Theology is interesting and helpful, but >> in the end I personally had to trust in His love for me . This is the thing >> that has given me a Peace that has surpast my understanding >> >> Pete >> >> ------------------------------ >> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:17:17 -0400 >> >> Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? >> From: janap...@gmail.com >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> >> >> Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is >> fertilized; aka the moment of conception. In this way of thinking, >> with DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA has the potential to >> form a complete person, but at the time of conception no organ is yet >> formed to contain the soul. With current technology, any cell in the >> body can be transformed into a omnipotent cell that can produce a human. >> So human spiritual characteristic is inherent in any DNA present in >> the human body. If this is true, do you commit murder when you cut >> your hair or trim your finger nails? If a mouse is given flawed >> disease carrying human DNA to simulate human disease or a goat is given >> human genes to produce human insulin, have these animals become human with >> a soul. If a geneticist copies human DNA, and puts it into a animal >> cell, does the animal become human? What parts of human DNA define the soul? >> Please extend your theology into the domain of genetic manipulation in >> your quest to define the soul. >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro <jth...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> ** >> You've made my point better than I. For when you are studying the ones >> and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the >> software. The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software. >> >> Much like the soul. We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron >> chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells >> and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand >> how Human consciousness works. To understand the human soul, one needs to >> understand its creator. Much like studying the software requires an >> understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and >> techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself. >> >> Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating >> system from the ones and zeros of machine code? Doesn't understanding >> windows require understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the >> machine code level? possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his >> work? Why would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the >> individual ones and zeros of the neurons? >> >> You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human >> soul. This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid >> acknowledging the creator. We try our best to understand ourselves without >> studying the human blueprint. Such efforts are always doom to fail, much >> like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. >> >> >> >> Jojo >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Patrick Ellul <ellulpatr...@gmail.com> >> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com >> *Sent:* Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? >> >> If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows >> installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and >> understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as >> ones and zeros on a memory device. >> >> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro <jth...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> Any psychological/psychiatric/**philosophical attempt to understand the >> soul is doom to failure from the onset. >> >> Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the >> Pentuim chip. Without understanding of the software, can you discern the >> operation of a PC from your understanding of the >> hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc? At best, you understanding would be >> severely incomplete and faulty. Software is the intangible thing that >> controls the behavior of the computer. Software controls the hardware. >> >> On the same token, experts in Psychology/Psychiatry/** >> Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/**etc, can never hope to completely >> understand the Human Soul. It is that intangible entity - the soul, that >> controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons, etc. The >> Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to understand the >> behavior of man. You need to study the soul, not the brain. The brain is >> simply a mechanism that the soul controls much like the CPU chip is the >> mechanism that MS Windows controls. The analogy is apt and accurate. >> >> Hence, one is wasting their time trying to study all the ideas of these >> philosophers/psychologists/**psychiatrists/etc. They are at best >> severely incomplete, at worst gravely misleading. >> >> If you want to understand the spiritual soul, go to the one who wrote the >> software soul. Study his book - the Bible to have a better understanding >> of human behavior. >> >> >> Jojo >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlr...@gmail.com> >> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:15 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? >> >> >> >> I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of >> consciousness to date. It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction, >> or Orch-OR. The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir >> Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who >> specialized in anesthesia and cancer research. Roger was seeking a >> model of the brain that did not require computation. Hameroff wanted >> to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under. >> Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the >> Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the >> curvature. Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the >> superposition. >> >> Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the >> structure. He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can >> influence other neurons. Together they see these electrons as a sea >> embedded in the geometry of spacetime. >> >> Needless to say, they have many critics. :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Patrick >> >> www.tRacePerfect.com >> The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! >> The quickest puzzle ever! >> >> >> >
