I'm sorry Ronni but in no way was I questioning either of you. Perhaps in hindsight I could have posted the Alsoft response to Daniel off-list, or ignored it altogether, but I posted it to provide evidence of their response to my query, as both of you concurred they probably would say it was OK to use Disk Warrior with SSDs.
In no way was I questioning your integrity and I'm disappointed that you infer I was. Indeed I have followed Daniel's advice re my computer problems to the letter, and it all worked (as I have described in a separate posting). That it hasn't solved my issues is a puzzle to me, but that is an aside to this discussion. Reg On 27/06/2013, at 12:58 pm, Ronda Brown <ro...@mac.com> wrote: > Daniel,You just beat me to replying, I'm much slower at typing than you. > I also am insulted and feeling rather disappointed with Reg. > Reg asked for our advice, we gave him our advice saying DiskWarrior was not > needed for SSD drives, and gave details why. > Reg could either take our advice or go ahead and purchase DiskWarrior if he > wished to, it doesn't worry us if he does or doesn't... either way we have > answered his query. > > We all know SSD drives are formatted the same as HDD otherwise they would not > work in OS X. > > Daniel has now felt he has to explain again with more information that if Reg > was really concerned he could have researched and found the information for > himself. > > I won't add to Daniel's post below as he has covered it extremely well as > always. > The query has been replied to by both of us, we don't have to justify our > comments. > We give advice to the best of our knowledge, what people do with that advice > is entirely their decision. > > Regards, > Ronni > > Sent from Ronni's iPad4 > > On 27/06/2013, at 12:32 PM, Daniel Kerr <dan...@macwizardry.com.au> wrote: > >> First off, I don't' really want to keep dragging this on,… but given the >> crap comment from that person that "whoever,…has no idea what they are >> talking about"… >> a) has taken out of context what I was referring to and "Trying to put into >> "easy english" rather then being technical on a forum/mailing list. >> b) mis-read what I was referring…. >> and frankly I'm a bit insulted…..for a few reasons. >> >> First off,…I wasn't referring anything to do with HFS+ format, I was >> referring to the storage. >> What I was trying to get to, and perhaps in a poorly worded way,… >> is that a normal spinning hard drive will store files where ever it sees fit >> to on a drive. This is why files can be a bit easily "Recovered" then an >> SSD. As it doesn't necessarily always write data in the same place. It might >> put some here, there and everywhere. Where as an SSD will "generally" write >> from the start of a disk and write over what is no longer required when a >> file is "deleted". >> What I was really getting at may be explained a bit better from here - >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_drive#SSD-optimized_file_systems> >> /quote >> Traditional hard drives store their data in a linear, ordered manner. SSDs, >> however, constantly rearrange their data while keeping track of their >> locations for the purpose of wear levelling. >> /end quote >> I was trying to find it more in a picture type of format to try and explain >> it,..but didn't have much joy (and have stopped work to write this, so spent >> more time then I've wanted to it given I've stopped paid work to write this >> reply,…). >> >> The other point I was really trying to get at, and again perhaps wasn't >> written too well, was to do with the "life span" of a drive. >> Taken from here - >> <http://www.auslogics.com/en/turbo-windows/ssd-vs-hard-drive/> >> /quote >> Another disadvantage of SSD drives is that each flash memory cell on an SSD >> can endure only so many write cycles. This means that if you subject your >> SSD to heavy use, its data retention will be shorter than with conventional >> hard drive. That’s why you should think twice when writing to an SSD. And >> that’s one of the reasons why it’s not a good idea to defrag solid-state >> drives, as defragmentation means unnecessary data writes to the disk. >> /end quote >> >> So why do something that puts more "work" on a drive? If it doesn't really >> need to be done.? I'm not saying hey, never use this product at all,…that's >> up to people to decide. I'm simply giving my personal opinion, that SSD's >> "work" differently, and people can make their own decision what they choose >> to do. I PERSONALLY don't see the need to run a lot of utilities across MY >> SSD. That's my choice. I read up on them, look at the forums and other >> things and decide what I feel is best for it. And given most of the >> responses I seem to come across say that an SSD will do it all for >> you,..then I'm happy with that. It still runs as well as it does the first >> day I had it over 2 years or more ago. >> >> The other thing that I always seem to find a bit of a coincidence is that >> every time I have run DiskWarrior on a drive it's always, without fail >> 33-34% out. Look, don't' get me wrong, I think it's a great product and I >> use it a lot (on "normal" drives),….I've just always wondered why, >> regardless of whether the drive is 1 year old,..or 5 years old,..it's always >> without fail at that figure. (and I'm not just referring to it running on >> one or two computers,..I'm looking at at least 30 or more over the space of >> the last 1.5-2 years). I still use it though, and it's one of the tools in >> my "tech drive" and has saved drives where other utilities haven't. >> >> SO perhaps I should have worded it slightly better,….but given the tech >> support has no idea of who I am, or how I word things, then to take it out >> of context and understand where I was going from, well,..frankly as I said, >> I'm a bit insulted. >> >> I will in future, use a different signature when posting to wamug,….so this >> will cover that. Thanks for brining that to my attention at least. >> >> At the end of the day, the choice is yours. I was simply offering my >> opinion, be it right or wrong…….. >> >> Kind regards >> Daniel >> --- >> Daniel Kerr >> MacWizardry >> >> Phone: 0414 795 960 >> Email: <daniel AT macwizardry.com.au> >> Web: <http://www.macwizardry.com.au> >> >> >> **For everything Apple** >> >> NOTE: Any information provided in this email may be my personal opinion and >> as such should be taken accordingly, and may not be the views of >> MacWizardry. Any information provided does not offer or warrant any form of >> warranty or accept liability. It would be appreciated that if any >> information in this email is to be disseminated, distributed or copied, that >> permission by the author be requested. >> >> On 27/06/2013, at 11:29 AM, Reg Whitely <rwhit...@internode.on.net> wrote: >> >>> Hi WAMUGgers, especially Daniel and Ronni >>> >>> Here is the reply I received from Alsoft, for your observation and comment. >>> >>> Happy reading >>> >>> Reg >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>>> From: "Alsoft Technical Support" <tech.supp...@alsoft.com> >>>> Subject: Re: MacBook Pro 2013 Retina Disk Warrior compatibility >>>> Date: 26 June 2013 10:58:36 pm AWST >>>> To: "Reg Whitely" <rwhit...@internode.on.net> >>>> >>>> Whoever stated: >>>> >>>> "No point. Solid State Drives (SSD's) don't work the same as "normal >>>> drives" so you won't gain any benefit from it, and in some cases can make >>>> it worse. >>>> >>>> ...has no idea what they are talking about. >>>> >>>> Further, this: >>>> >>>> "SSD's don't store files the same way a normal spinning disk does" >>>> >>>> ...is completely false. >>>> >>>> Both a traditional rotational hard drive, and an SSD, are going to be >>>> using the HFS+ format when used with a Macintosh computer. >>>> >>>> As such, regardless of the type of media, the directory format is the >>>> same, the directory structure is the same, and the problems that can occur >>>> with the directory are the same. >>>> >>>> As such, using DiskWarrior will always provide a benefit and never make >>>> things worse. >>>> >>>> Finally, for reference, DiskWarrior doesn't "defragment" a hard drive. >>>> DiskWarrior rebuilds the directory (index of all of the files and >>>> folders). These are two completely different tasks and actions. >>>> >>>> -- Marc >>>> >>>> >>>>> Thanks Marc >>>>> >>>>> I've been reminded by others that I neglected to tell you my MacBook Pro >>>>> has SSD. >>>>> >>>>> To quote: "No point. Solid State Drives (SSD's) don't work the same as >>>>> "normal drives" so you won't gain any benefit from it, and in some cases >>>>> can make it worse. >>>>> >>>>> So I wouldn't recommend Diskwarrior for that type of machine, or ones >>>>> with SSD's at all." >>>>> >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> "... this link may help more >>>>> <https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4092213?start=0&tstart=0> >>>>> Particularly this part >>>>> /quote >>>>> What you DONT need to do is worry about physical maintenance - >>>>> "defragmentation" is pretty much irrelevant. >>>>> /end quote >>>>> SSD's don't store files the same way a normal spinning disk does. >>>>> Just like you "can't" really do a secure erase files from an SSD. Once >>>>> something is erased on it, it's gone. >>>>> (Even if you boot off another drive, and try do a "secure erase" reformat >>>>> of the drive, that option isn't readily available in Disk Utility,..or >>>>> others,....). >>>>> This is one of the reasons backups with SSD's are very important, as once >>>>> files are gone,..they're gone. So data recovery is a lot harder (if >>>>> sometimes near impossible)." >>>>> >>>>> What is your response to this? >>>>> >>>>> Reg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 25/06/2013, at 9:26 pm, Alsoft Technical Support >>>>> <tech.supp...@alsoft.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by Reg >>>>>>> Whitely (white...@me.com) on Tuesday, June 25, 2013 at 03:37:33 >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a_Product: DiskWarrior >>>>>>> >>>>>>> b_Product_Version: 4.4 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> c_Product_Serial_Number: presales >>>>>>> >>>>>>> d_Question_or_Problem: When will you release an update to Disk >>>>>>> Warrior to provide a suitable start-up disk? Disk Warrior has been >>>>>>> recommended to me but I'm reluctant to buy it until it is fully >>>>>>> compatible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> g. Mac OS Version: Mac OS 10.8 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> h. Mac Model: MacBook Pro Retina, 15-inch, Early 2013 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i. Mac Processor: Intel >>>>>>> >>>>>>> j. Mac RAM: 16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> IP Address: 121.45.229.26 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The DiskWarrior application is fully compatible with this computer, you >>>>>> simply cannot start up the computer from the DiskWarrior disc. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is currently no DiskWarrior disc to start up this generation >>>>>> MacBook Pro. All third-party developers are awaiting the delivery from >>>>>> Apple of a version of the operating system that can be run from a DVD, >>>>>> so that an updated disc can be created. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, the DiskWarrior 4.4 application can be used with this machine. >>>>>> You simply cannot start up the computer from a DiskWarrior disc. >>>>>> >>>>>> As such, you could utilize one of the following configurations after >>>>>> utilizing the downloadable 4.4 updater (However, this will still not >>>>>> create a disc that will start up your computer) at: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.alsoft.com/DiskWarrior/diskwarriorupdate.html >>>>>> >>>>>> (1) Alternate Startup Disk >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have an external drive such as... >>>>>> >>>>>> FireWire (PowerPC or Intel) >>>>>> USB2 or newer (Intel only) >>>>>> Thunderbolt (Intel only) >>>>>> >>>>>> Or a secondary internal drive or partition... >>>>>> >>>>>> You can install Mac OS X (the version which shipped with your computer >>>>>> or higher) on that drive and start up the computer from the operating >>>>>> system on the external/secondary device. Once you have started up the >>>>>> computer from the newly-installed operating system, install DiskWarrior >>>>>> into the "Utilities" folder (which is inside the "Applications" folder). >>>>>> Then, you can launch DiskWarrior from the Utilities folder of the >>>>>> external/secondary device to rebuild the directory of the computer's >>>>>> main hard drive. >>>>>> >>>>>> More information can be here: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://support.apple.com/kb/ht4718 >>>>>> >>>>>> (2) Target Disk Mode: Connect two Macs with a FireWire or Thunderbolt >>>>>> cable (not all options will be applicable depending on the model of your >>>>>> computer) where one is the "host" and the other is a "target". The host >>>>>> Mac should be running OS X (10.4.x "Tiger" or higher). In this >>>>>> scenario, the target Mac is the computer whose internal hard drive you >>>>>> want to repair. Start by shutting down the target Mac. Then turn it on >>>>>> while holding down the "T" key. The target Mac's drive will appear as >>>>>> an option via the DiskWarrior interface. Run DiskWarrior from the >>>>>> Utilities folder of the host Mac and rebuild the target Mac's disk. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- Marc >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>>>> Marc Moorash, Alsoft Technical Support >>>>>> Email: tech.supp...@alsoft.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reg Whitely >>>>> >>>>> Home: 08 9921 7272 >>>>> Mob: 04 8899 7313 >>>>> Email: rwhit...@internode.on.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>> Marc Moorash, Alsoft Technical Support >>>> Email: tech.supp...@alsoft.com >>>> >>> >>> Reg Whitely >>> >>> Home: 08 9921 7272 >>> Mob: 04 8899 7313 >>> Email: rwhit...@internode.on.net >>> >>> >>> >>> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- >>> Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> >>> Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> >>> Settings & Unsubscribe - >>> <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> >> >> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- >> Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> >> Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> >> Settings & Unsubscribe - >> <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> > -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- > Archives - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml> > Guidelines - <http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml> > Settings & Unsubscribe - > <http://lists.wamug.org.au/listinfo/wamug.org.au-wamug> Reg Whitely Home: 08 9921 7272 Mob: 04 8899 7313 Email: rwhit...@internode.on.net
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