'en' is less specific. color or colour might be in it (depending on who wrote the string); it is ambiguous. Removing ambiguity, so that - if some application appropriately needs to be picky about spellings, idioms, grammatical subteties, I think is important.
'en' is "generic"; However, it is also what comes (from web2py?) to the client in the Content-Language setting (in essence, we are here, within web2py, declaring for the application writier what the default content-language is, so that it can be matched with a client "accept-language" --- that is, acceptable language to serve for the request). I do not have a powerful position on this - but am more convinced this patch should declare only one language (the concept of it declaring in effect a web2py "content-language" at the program level seems to fit, make sense, and work for me). There is a lot to read on this, http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-http-and-lang and I would only say that I think if we think in terms of this being about declaring the web2py level equivalent of "content-language", then it should be singular. - Yarko On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Thadeus Burgess <thade...@thadeusb.com>wrote: > Maybe it's just me, but I can read the same sentence in en-us, en-uk, and > en-gr, and I understand exactly what they mean just the same. Can't it just > default all to en, and then any new messages that are written get added with > this in mind? > > -Thadeus > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:31 PM, mdipierro <mdipie...@cs.depaul.edu>wrote: > >> >> I agree with you. Besides most of the current messages have been >> written by Fran and Jonathan who are both in Europe. How are we to >> decide what is en-us and what is en-uk? >> >> On Nov 24, 2:28 pm, Thadeus Burgess <thade...@thadeusb.com> wrote: >> > new install on ubuntu is [en-us, en]. >> > >> > I think it should just default to 'en', if you want uk english or us >> > english, then these are different languages, and should be forced. >> > >> > -Thadeus >> > >> > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Yarko Tymciurak < >> > >> > resultsinsoftw...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Thadeus Burgess < >> thade...@thadeusb.com>wrote: >> > >> > >> Why can't it just be 'en'? >> > >> > > It probably could.... I just checked the request environment in a >> "new >> > > install" browser I've never used ("Konquerer on Ubuntu) and web2py is >> > > picking up >> > > http_accept_language=['en-US', 'en'] >> > >> > > So if a client had ['en-UK', 'en'], if no translation file for >> en-uk.py >> > > existed, it would "pick up" the en, and deliver in the site / apps >> > > internally encoded strings (which would be appropriate). >> > >> > > If this is consistent, that the ordering from a client is first >> > > country-specific, then country-agnostic, then this would probably be >> > > reasonable. The only downside: if I complained (from UK for example) >> > > about "color" being misspelled (if I think it should be "colour"), >> then the >> > > app is not being explicit enough about what it says it's servering. >> > >> > > Having said that, I am now convinced (pretty well) that 'en' should >> not be >> > > part of the gluon/languages initialization. I think it should be >> explicit, >> > > and only one language - the more specific declaration, not the >> broader one. >> > >> > > So - I think that the original patch I sent (with only 'en-us') is >> correct, >> > > and what we should use. >> > >> > > - Yarko >> > >> > >> -Thadeus >> > >> > >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Yarko Tymciurak < >> > >> resultsinsoftw...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > >>> a short version of this (context: U.N. type of meeting): >> > >> > >>> you (in effect) changed the translator initialization code to say >> "The >> > >>> default language [string] I will present you is TWO lanugages", >> Massimo, it >> > >>> is _as if_ you said something like: "I'm speaking Itailan, or >> another way >> > >>> for you to think of it - I am speaking Russian" >> > >> > >>> It cannot be! I cannot "hear" you that way - I have to know _which_ >> > >>> language, if I am to have any hope of "hiring' the right translator! >> > >> > >>> There is no "can of worms" in the _problem domain_; it is in your >> not >> > >>> being specific enough in what you told me you would be speaking! >> > >> > >>> :-) >> > >> > >>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Yarko Tymciurak < >> > >>> resultsinsoftw...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > >>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:37 PM, mdipierro < >> mdipie...@cs.depaul.edu>wrote: >> > >> > >>>>> I put en-uk not en-gr. >> > >> > >>>> right, en-uk; from a software analysis perspective, only one >> language >> > >>>> should be in the initialization (addition of a non-country specific >> version >> > >>>> of said language should also be acceptable). >> > >> > >>>> You see, this is a big can of worms. How do you >> > >>>>> know that the default application is in en-us and not en-uk? >> > >> > >>>> This is not can of worms at all: you do not "know" - you declare; >> the >> > >>>> patch as you made it, you in effect declared TWO languages (two >> contry >> > >>>> specific versions of the same base language, but for understanding >> this it >> > >>>> is clearer to ignore the "non-country-specific" part - and just >> think of it >> > >>>> as TWO languages. >> > >> > >>>> When you look at this as TWO languages, and your translation class >> code, >> > >>>> you will see that once any language is in accepted languages, it >> will not be >> > >>>> picked up from the application's languages/*.py file. >> > >> > >>>> And that is the bug - you should not be initializing two languages, >> > >>>> because you prevent the (potential) translations of either of them >> from >> > >>>> being picked up, and served to the client. >> > >> > >>>> I can see that you considered this as "all english" - but if you >> think >> > >>>> of this as separate languages, and in terms of how you read-in the >> language >> > >>>> translation files, then the mistake is easy to see. >> > >> > >>>>> This is >> > >>>>> way it was not specified before. This is why I am still not >> completely >> > >>>>> convinced it is a good idea not to let the users be explicit. >> > >> > >>>> You are not looking at this in the right way; you are wrong - look >> in >> > >>>> terms of your design, and it should be immediately clear. >> > >> > >>>> For example, think about setting "default language" as 'it' and >> 'es' --- >> > >>>> and try to walk thru the logic in gluon/languages.py - then it >> should be >> > >>>> very clear that only _one_ language should be initialized. >> > >> > >>>> After that point, you can extend this to see that adding a >> non-country >> > >>>> specific language to the initialization does not cause any bad >> behavior, and >> > >>>> can be useful (help deliver the language appropriately more often). >> > >> > >>>> Just remove 'en-uk' from this patch, and it will be fine. >> > >> > >>>> - Yarko >> > >> > >>>>> On Nov 24, 12:14 pm, Yarko Tymciurak <resultsinsoftw...@gmail.com >> > >> > >>>>> wrote: >> > >>>>> > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:25 PM, mdipierro < >> mdipie...@cs.depaul.edu> >> > >>>>> wrote: >> > >> > >>>>> > > Yarko's patch is tentatively in trunk since nobody seems to >> > >>>>> complain >> > >>>>> > > about this change in behavior. >> > >> > >>>>> > You made an error with the change you made in this patch: you >> added >> > >>>>> 3 >> > >>>>> > languages, 'en', 'en-us', and 'en-gr'; >> > >>>>> > This should only be either 'en-us' (the language of the distro), >> or >> > >>>>> at most >> > >>>>> > ['en-us', 'en']. >> > >> > >>>>> > As you've done it, you've introduced another bug. >> > >> > >>>>> > Putting en-gr will prevent 'en-gr' from being seen if it is a >> > >>>>> translation >> > >>>>> > file UNLESS application FORCES a base language (for example). >> > >>>>> > This means that 'behavior' and 'behaviour' will not be >> > >>>>> appropriately >> > >>>>> > picked up from a languages/en-gr.py file UNLESS EACH application >> > >>>>> forces >> > >>>>> > language to 'en-us' (or some other, non-[en-gr] language). >> > >> > >>>>> > For example, a 'en-us' app will NOT be able (with this app) to >> > >>>>> correctly >> > >>>>> > display to someone in England, who has their language set as >> 'en-gr'. >> > >> > >>>>> > Please fix this in trunk: to ['en-us']; ['en-us', 'en'] >> would >> > >>>>> also work >> > >>>>> > appropriately and be acceptable. >> > >> > >>>>> > - Yarko >> > >> > >>>>> > > Massimo >> > >> > >> >> > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "web2py-users" group. 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