Hello;
I would like to use the WebObjects tools on Leopard as well.
Mostly WOBuilder, for the rest of the project I can use Eclipse. I
am a programmer and not a dabbler or a beginner, I have 20 years of
experience in programming. I have thousands of users that use the
software I create for them. It is more cost effective for me to use
my time mapping parameter values through WOBuilder GUI than typing
them into the wo builder in eclipse, and I do use sub components. I
find it is easier and quicker.
I like the eclipse IDE as well and it is great for my java code (much
better than XCode IMHO), building packages, and editing the EO
Diagrams. But for WO's I want WOBuilder. Just my two cents.
Don
On Feb 23, 2008, at 6:42 PM, Michelle Parker wrote:
HI all
I am interested in using the WebObjects tools on Leopard.
We are in the same position as Thomas, 10 years of WebObjects
development, with many projects.
We reuse our frameworks heavily, so we are not writing a lot of new
code each day.
Mostly, day to day work involves WebObjects builder, a lot of which
is drag bindings.
We use many reusable sub-components, with CSS and also D2W and
Wonder (for some).
I am not talking WYSIWYG editing, just GUI editing, eg. we don't
care about preview.
What makes people think that WO Builder stops developers using CSS?!?!
I find it confusing to hear people complain that Eclipse is the
only way to follow best practice, that Xcode is not valid.
So are they saying that they were not following best practice when
they used Xcode?
As a WebObjects developer since 1997 I find it very insulting for
some people to imply that because I prefer Xcode I am a hack or
hobbyist.
I am actually too busy working on WebObjects related projects to
spare the time to learn a new IDE and all its bugs and
idiosyncrasies. And there are many.
In fact, I believe that most WebObjects developers have only moved
to Eclipse because they were forced to.
If Apple had stuck to its promise of taking Java seriously (eg.
refactoring in Xcode) we would not be talking about Eclipse now.
And, if Apple had put some of the time they are spending now on bug
fixes (thank you!) to the tools a few of years ago, then there
would be no IDE argument at all.
Eclipse may be a productive java IDE for some, but it is not worth
the change for us right now.
For us it is "Better the Devil you Know". I know these bugs.
It seems pretty crazy to me that I can't update my Apple operating
system because I need to maintain backward compatibility with
Apple's own software (and not some third-party's).
And even worse, that we can only buy Apple servers with a new
operating system which breaks existing WebObjects deployments...
I am sure there are others on the list who are of the same opinion.
thanks for listening
mich
---------------------------------------
Michelle Parker
Web Objectives Pty Ltd
33 Ridge St
Gordon, NSW , 2072
Australia
Phone: (02) 9499 3166
Fax: (02) 9499 3166
Mobile : 0412 064 123
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---------------------------------------
On 24/02/2008, at 8:10 AM, Pascal Robert wrote:
I agree on some of your points, but not on others. It's true that
WOLips is not a RAD environment like WO Builder/Xcode was. Most
people who complain about WOLips are either part-time programmers
or people who were using WO to build quick prototypes. BUT I see
WOLips as a best pratices enforcer: it's better to have packages,
you should use sub-components, you should use CSS, etc.
For people who use tables and never use sub-components, it's true
it was easier with WO Builder. But if you are using sub-
components, CSS, etc., WOLips is WAY WAY WAY better. And WOLips
Java editor is, again, WAY ahead of Xcode's Java support. We
packaged ~40 projects (who were using the default package) in less
than... 2 hours. It's quite easy: you refactor the first
project, install it with ant, and on the projects who use the
first project, you do Command-Shift-O on the Sources folder, and
voilà, you let WOLips/Eclipse magic going on for 2 minutes.
We migrated 78 projects to WOLips, and so far the only things that
I really miss are: preview of the pages (it's especially useful
for our old projects with generic names for the bindings and with
lot of tables in the same component), the ability of adding
variables and methods from the WO Component editor and drag&drop
of bindings.
Clark,
I object to your condescending tone.
I have been using Eclipse exclusively as my WebObjects
development environment ever since Apple's announcement that it
was dropping the dev tools. While I am willing to accept that
Eclipse may be a fine JAVA development environment for
PROGRAMMERS, nothing in my experience with eclipse has convinced
me that it will EVER be a more productive WEBOBJECTS development
environment for me or my clients.
I have been developing software for more than 30 years, but I
don't ever want to be a programmer. I have ten years worth of
WebObjects libraries and modules to call on in my work, mostly
developed by me, so programming is not something I have to do a
lot of. The simplicity and elegance of the Apple tools allowed me
to focus exclusively on the customer goals without getting bogged
down in programming. My main development tool used to be WO
Builder. I have given Eclipse a very solid trial, and I still
believe that XCode would be a more productive environment, in
terms of functionality delivered to the customer, if the dev
tools worked.
Regards
Thomas
On 23/02/2008, at 8:15 PM, Clark Mueller wrote:
Seriously, give it up... try Eclipse for more then ten minutes
at a sitting, and you will learn to love the productivity boost
it offers. The old tools WILL actually permanently stop working
one day.
Clark
On 23 Feb 08, at 1:47 AM, Thomas wrote:
Dave,
I'm interested, but I'm wondering about a few things:
- XHTML 4.0 standard html?
- WO 5.4 inline tags like <wo:string value="[whatever]"/>
- html/api-only (no wod) components?
- those bugs I used to swear at all the time, but mercifully
seem to have forgotten... like pasting a tag from one component
into another page, and all the quoted attributes disappear, like
whatever: WOKeyValueConditional {
key = "session.something";
value = "some text";
negate = true;
}
becomes
whatever: WOKeyValueConditional {
negate = true;
}
I seem to swear as much at Eclipse as I used to swear at WO
Builder, but I'd be very wary of going back to XCode now that I
have become more-or-less productive with Eclipse...
Regards
Thomas
On 23/02/2008, at 6:19 PM, David Elliott wrote:
Well, I finally did it.
If anyone is interested, both EOModeler and WebObjects Builder
from the Xcode 2.5 release can be made to work in conjunction
with Xcode 3 on Leopard. This includes the ability of
WebObjects Builder to talk with Xcode 3 so it can display the
variables from associated Java source files.
I also determined that Apple built WOJavaPBXHelper.pbplugin to
support GC mode so with a small Info.plist hack you can let
Xcode know it's okay to load it which allows you to use the
web assistant as well as click on links in backtraces.
So far I have encountered only one bug. In WebObjects Builder
closing the last open component for a given project will
result in Xcode choking and WB hanging waiting for a reply
when you go to open another component from the same project.
An easy workaround is to always leave at least one component
open. If you accidently close all of them, quitting WB before
opening a new component will fix the problem.
Anyway, I'm trying to gauge if there's any interest in this
and whether it's even worth my time to release it. So reply
and let me know if you're interested.
-Dave
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