I'll give you really scary, in 1995 I was hosting a commercial website on a win95 box that had been butchered to run a cgi scripting engine in VB. To make matters worse, the DB was MSSQL 1.0 running on a MS OS/2 1.3 server ( IBM Microchannel PS/2 ). All I can say is that it worked. To this day, I cringe to recall the configuration.
Ahh, LAN Manager, OS/2 and MSSQL in the days before the Sybase license. Now THAT was an adventure. -- Andy 'Dru' Satori On Wednesday, July 27, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: > Ah yes, I remember that we had mSQL hosting (on Solaris 2.5!) at an ISP I was > working for in 1996 to 2000, and I remember the discussions about how much > code MySQL stole from mSQL. > > Not trust me, nothing was worse than the Access/NT/ASP combo, or even worse > OS 8.6/WebStar/FMP 4.1 (with the Web Sharing crap) combo, for the Web. We had > 3 Macs and 2 NT boxes (+ many Solaris boxes) for hosting, and I had to put > those USB dongle that detected that the Mac was frozen because of FMP and > rebooted the Mac... > > Anyone remembers Tango and Butler SQL? > > > If you want a bit of history about MySQL you won't read on Wikipedia, here > > is the backstory: > > > > Back in 1993 there were no free lightweight SQL servers. The first one to > > appear was mSQL* (aka miniSQL), which wasn't technically open source, but > > it was free for non commercial use, and distributed as source. It was > > initially an sql query engine that ran on top of Postgres (back then > > Postgres wasn't an SQL DB), but later implemented its own backend storage. > > > > About a year, maybe a year and a half after mSQL's first release, MySQL > > appears, and it just happened to support all the same cli syntax, similar > > admin tools, etc as mSQL, it was basically a straight clone of mSQL but GPL > > and free. The origin of certain chunks of the source that were in the > > initial MySQL releases were also suspiciously similar to those found in > > mSQL. > > > > Initially neither product supported concurrent queries, however MySQL > > quickly introduced support for them using threads, which basically sucked > > for years, but is was a differentiator that took many years to be matched > > by mSQL (release early vs release when it actually works). At this time, > > mSQL was very stable, and MySQL basically sucked unless you used exactly > > the right config and feature set, but had the potential to do well once all > > the feature bugs were worked out (which took another 4 years or so). > > > > For a while the two products were pretty comparable in features (that > > worked), performance and popularity, but the non commercial use license and > > a growing MySQL feature set eventually spelled the demise of mSQL's > > popularity. MySQL went on to dominate the free sql database product space > > because it was basically the only choice that didn't cost money to use > > commercially, and support concurrent queries. The appearance of php in 1995 > > helped widen that gap as demand for small SQL databases grew, despite it > > supporting both products equally. > > At that time mSQL already had a similar web programming language > > distributed with it called Lite, but that's a whole other story. > > > > MySQL grew from humble and possibly slightly illegitimate beginnings for > > the purposes of being something very simple, very small, and very fast. > > Things like ACID compliance and MVCC were liabilities to speed and > > simplicity and not part of the original plan. It was never intended to be > > even remotely comparable to the Ingres, Sybase, Oracle, DB2 or Interbase > > servers of that era. > > > > * I used to work with the author of mSQL many moons ago. > > > > > > On 28/07/2011, at 4:21 AM, Andrew Satori wrote: > > > > > > > > You asked, about rows and columns so I answered. I know what killed it. I > > > know why. I know what I could have done to prevent it and work around it. > > > The net result is that in order to get the performance I needed, I was > > > going to have to alter things to be MySQL specific, rather than the > > > standard syntax that works across multiple backends. Hardware was not the > > > limit. The data in question was in how MySQL coped with a 5th normal > > > structure and pulling in detail information associated with a master > > > entry record. The problems stemmed from the join and a table scan caused > > > my MySQL's inability properly user the index. The same request against > > > the same data in every other platform of note executed better than 2x as > > > fast as the MySQL implementation, in some cases on the same hardware, but > > > most on inferior hardware. > > > > > > I understand your point, and yes, there are/were solutions. My point > > > being, that MySQL has limitations. They can be overcome, but the further > > > you push it, the more difficult and expensive they become. Unfortunately, > > > I've been down this path a few times with several platforms. MySQL, > > > OpenBase, MSSQL, Oracle, Informix, Sybase, DB/2, and PostgreSQL to name a > > > few (I have only used FrontBase for prototyping so I have no deployment > > > experience with it and do not include it for that reason). Everyone one > > > of them has trade-offs and limits. Based upon that experience, for any > > > project I start today, PosgreSQL would be my first choice, with Oracle > > > and MSSQL being 2nd and 3rd. MySQL would be absolutely dead last. *if* it > > > was a project that had Twitter size scaling issues, I would consider > > > altering that to use DB/2 as the platform of choice, because of it's > > > ability to cleanly scale to IBM's z series hardware, but even then I > > > would have to weigh the benefits versus the limitations of DB/2. > > > > > > In case it hasn't been obvious from the beginning. I loathe MySQL, both > > > technically ( it is still basically a SQL engine grafted to a text based > > > data engine ala PICK, DB4, Progress or Paradox ) and philosophically ( > > > GPL applied to the data access libraries rather than LGPL ). I do not > > > argue that both can be worked around, but bluntly spoken, if it is a > > > serious RDBMS and it wants to play with the big boys, then I should not > > > have to. > > > > > > Yes, I am heavily biased against MySQL. I do not claim to be anything > > > else. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 27, 2011, at 2:01 PM, Kieran Kelleher wrote: > > > > > > > I find it hard to believe that such a table would cause MySQL to fall > > > > over. Possibly your engine selection, /etc/my.cnf and/or > > > > hardware/memory allocations might not have been appropriate in the > > > > setup that failed to meet your expectations. I found this book helped a > > > > few years back when I got started with MySQL http://amzn.com/0596101716 > > > > - and, as I have said before, the default out of the box settings in > > > > MySQL are dismally constrained and probably designed for someone doing > > > > basic development on a small memory PC. > > > > > > > > Other than the lack of deferred constraints, and associated > > > > workarounds, I have found MySQL to be just fine in practice for tables > > > > in the 10 to 70 million range, albeit, in production I usually try to > > > > have enough memory (relatively inexpensive) to cover the entire DB. > > > > > > > > In any case, for the average WO developer, probably any one of the > > > > popular dbs such as Frontbase, MySQL or PostgreSQL would be just fine. > > > > If I was starting right now and had to spend the time becoming familiar > > > > with the detailed ins/outs/ and configuration of a new database > > > > platform, I would probably try PostgreSQL since it has deferred > > > > constraints and it is open source. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Kieran > > > > > > > > On Jul 27, 2011, at 9:48 AM, Andrew Satori wrote: > > > > > > > > > roughly 20 million rows in a table with ~120 columns in the table. > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 27, 2011, at 1:14 AM, Kieran Kelleher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Andrew. > > > > > > > > > > > > What exactly was the scale/size of your MySQL database that caused > > > > > > it to fall over? Row count? (Row count x field count) max? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, Kieran. > > > > > > (Sent from my iPhone) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 26, 2011, at 2:48 PM, Andrew Satori <d...@druware.com > > > > > > (mailto:d...@druware.com)> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > To a degree, but if you have committed to the MySQL way to get > > > > > > > past it's core weaknesses, you have also made transitioning to > > > > > > > anything else very very hard. In the case of Facebook, they have > > > > > > > hit the wall where the front end is still scaling, but the > > > > > > > backend is not. It is so wedded to it's MySQL roots though, they > > > > > > > are not in a position to replace the backend with something that > > > > > > > scales well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OpenBase, FrontBase, and to a lesser degree, PostgreSQL limit how > > > > > > > much of this trap by implementing a greater subset of 'common' > > > > > > > functionality. That comes at the cost of some friendly behaviors > > > > > > > towards web development though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 26, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Travis Britt wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FWIW, once you reach that level scaling on *anything* is hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 26, 2011, at 6:02 AM, d...@druware.com > > > > > > > > (mailto:d...@druware.com) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, the issue I have in general is that the market seems to > > > > > > > > > have adopted a MySQL or commercial mindset. MySQL is, to put > > > > > > > > > it mildly, a trap. Skipping over the license issues, and > > > > > > > > > going straight to the real stuff, MySQL has been shown > > > > > > > > > repeatedly to have very real and finite limits on growth and > > > > > > > > > scalability. Google, twitter, facebook, etc have all built > > > > > > > > > foundations on MySQL only to hit walls, and implement > > > > > > > > > obscenely expensive workarounds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is that the alternatives do not cater to the web > > > > > > > > > dev platform, and they lose in the "startup" phases despite > > > > > > > > > long term advantages. LAMP has become a liability. Too many > > > > > > > > > people assume with knowing, and it is killing techs like WO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gets worse when you mix in python and coredata/sqllite. > > > > > > > > > Ever used apple's teams wiki server. Uggh, what a mess. It > > > > > > > > > will come full circle. I still have a coup,e WO projects but > > > > > > > > > most of my new work is objective c or c++ cgi implementation. > > > > > > > > > It is fast, scalable, portable, and I do not have to deal > > > > > > > > > with 10 layers of stack to make things work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love WO, I hate the scripting environments, and .net is an > > > > > > > > > equal disaster to LAMP. Basically, the web toolkits have > > > > > > > > > gotten worse, not better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Sent from my HP TouchPad > > > > > > > > > On Jul 25, 2011 11:51 PM, Chuck Hill > > > > > > > > > <ch...@global-village.net (mailto:ch...@global-village.net)> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > FrontBase is pretty quiet these days too, though the dev list > > > > > > > > > does see some traffic and there are new releases. Marketing a > > > > > > > > > proprietary SQL database these days is swimming upstream, you > > > > > > > > > can't expect wide success. FrontBase fills a niche market, of > > > > > > > > > which WO is probably less and less every year. As long as > > > > > > > > > their goal is to target their niche (and they do so well), > > > > > > > > > they will keep going. Neither FrontBase or OpenBase are ever > > > > > > > > > going to replace MySQL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2011-07-25, at 8:45 PM, Tim Worman wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that right there IS funny. But if no one were on the > > > > > > > > > > list to see that and laugh, then I'd have to develop in > > > > > > > > > > something other than WO. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tim Worman > > > > > > > > > > UCLA GSE&IS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:36 PM, John Huss wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what I would do if I was using some > > > > > > > > > > > proprietary technology that hadn't been updated in years, > > > > > > > > > > > with almost no communication from the company in charge > > > > > > > > > > > of it! What is that like? ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 10:22 PM, Tim Worman > > > > > > > > > > > <li...@thetimmy.com (mailto:li...@thetimmy.com)> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Openbase has been a great product from day one. And > > > > > > > > > > > integrating it with WO definitely is seamless. I'm a fan. > > > > > > > > > > > But the developer list has fallen completely silent and > > > > > > > > > > > it used to be vibrant. The product hasn't had any public > > > > > > > > > > > updates since 2009 - I don't think it is because there is > > > > > > > > > > > nothing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm in no hurry at all to move my server but I do have to > > > > > > > > > > > develop against something and that can't be Openbase if > > > > > > > > > > > I'm running Lion. The tweet indicating that a beta has > > > > > > > > > > > been "released" is one of only two from the company since > > > > > > > > > > > Feb 2010. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tim Worman > > > > > > > > > > > UCLA GSE&IS > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > Do not post admin requests to the list. 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