Thanks Aaron, I'm going to keep this email front and center during the Fluent conference.
Been awhile since my LISP, but I do remember it being very slick. I'm just not sure how good it would be for large projects. My mind is definitely geared toward OO, and I don't recall there being strong OO features built into the language. I'm also a big believer in strong typing. Compile errors are much more palatable to me than runtime errors. As with even javascript, I'm sure there are ways to write Lisp in an OO and maybe even a strongly typed way, but I don't want to have to think about how to structure my code using "tricks" to introduce concepts that I'm used to be at the front and center of a good OO language. My idea about javascript has always been that as ugly as it is, it sticks around because it's the only game in town on the browser. It just seems anathema to me that this language is creeping to the server side, even with all the libraries being built up that in essence try to fix all that is wrong with the language itself. To me the right approach is the Wonder Ajax way, let the server generate as much of the javascript for you as possible so you don't have to get your hands dirty (just like EOF does with SQL). But, I'll keep an open mind as I learn more about server side javascript and associated libraries. On Mar 8, 2014, at 1:00 PM, Aaron Rosenzweig <[email protected]> wrote: > Once you realize javascript has more in common with LISP than Java you will > like it more. > > Javascript *can* be programmed in a Java-like manner and the syntax shares > many similarities when you treat it that way. That does not mean that you > *should.” > > You’ll gain a deeper understanding when you read a bit about “prototype” > languages: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype-based_programming > > The famous JS library “Prototype” is named what it is for a very good reason, > it is not because it makes it faster to make an "application prototype." > > Attacking Javascript with a procedural mindset will make you sick, > eventually. You’ll feel that Javascript is brittle and difficult. It is for > this same reason I cannot stand jQuery-Mobile and frameworks like them. You > feel like you are coming to speed quickly but then you realize you have > spaghetti code that is hard to maintain. > > Just like with WO, learning the “magic” (the right way) is better than > quickly hacking on something. Sure, if you already know SQL you can start > making JSP (java server pages) almost immediately… but don’t you think *now* > that you use an ORM (EOF - EntityModeler) that it was worth it to figure out > that mental abstraction? > > A proper understanding of Javascript, with more of a LISP or even a Smalltalk > mindset, will make coding, debugging, and development a breeze. Understanding > how to think in the Prototype object model and using “blocks” are key. The > difference between a “function reference” and “executing a function” are key, > even anonymous functions. > > On the client side, That’s where JS really shines. Again, I don’t like > jQuery-Mobile because you are stringing HTML pages together, you aren’t > building an app and you aren’t thinking the best way. Here I would use > something like Enyo or JO (there are others). I like Enyo because it has a > Web-based GUI that feels like the old WOBuilder / Interface Builder days. The > better javascript app environments don’t have you coding ANY html. > > On the server side, node.js and its kin are “cool” but I don’t see any > technical advantage over WO other than "You like JS more than Java.” There > are many more benefits to WO. > > I don’t know of any true failings in WO. Our ORM works well. I don’t believe > ORM is always the best solution but if I had to use one, I’d want to use EOF. > I’ll present on the limits of ORM and how to work around them elegantly with > WO at this year’s WOWODC. > > How many versions of Adobe Photoshop do we need? Aren’t they done yet? In > fact, some of the older versions are better if you do nefarious deeds with > it. By the same token, WO is feature complete. We don’t need a new version > out from Apple. Anjo and I are happy to use WO 5.3 because with Wonder WO 5.4 > didn’t get us anything. Really, nothing at all. Apple does not need us… we > also do not need Apple to be viable. Apple has given us more than enough > already. Be thankful. > > Though we are feature complete, I do see some people trying to make new > things for WO and trying to give back but are met with friction. People like > Ken Ishimoto. To me that’s our biggest issue. It’s not so easy to get your > contributions into WOnder. We have a gentleman’s club. > AARON ROSENZWEIG / Chat 'n Bike > e: [email protected] t: (301) 956-2319 > > > On Mar 8, 2014, at 12:14 PM, Jesse Tayler <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> go ahead and store anything you want into Mongo DB and it dumps whatever >> rats nest of data you put in there without a care in the world. >> >> is that a good thing? you decide. >> >> my world is mobile, and the web counterparts need a rational routing, and >> presentation navigation standards to help the mostly client side javascript >> world of web presentation — and so — I kinda love WO and ERRest because >> there’s ERXKeys, and D2W and that’s how I want to make a persistence layer I >> can depend on. >> >> >> On Mar 8, 2014, at 11:39 AM, Joel M. Benisch <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> +1, whole heartedly..... >>> >>> Universal medical records. >>> Does anyone know of a better server side engine or tool set available to >>> handle all the disparate types of data that the inevitable national health >>> records data base will house? I don't. >>> >>> I'm in the Insurance Business. >>> WO rocks for our purposes. >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Joel M. Benisch CPCU, President >>> 973-992-6300 x303 >>> PaperFree Corporation >>> 973-992-6666 FAX >>> 909 Regal Boulevard >>> [email protected] >>> Livingston, NJ 07039-8249 WE CREATE PRODUCTS WE WOULD WANT TO USE! >>> >>> On Mar 8, 2014, at 5:31 AM, jazz wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Mark, >>>> >>>> When reading through your email I realised that this is quite nicely >>>> summarising my thoughts on this topic. I hear other people on the list >>>> talking about the past, but this is about the future. Since Apple now has >>>> a large installed base of iOS devices, it would be worth a try again to go >>>> beyond consumer products. Your medical application of iOS linked with >>>> server technology would fit perfect in the common heard Apple values: "the >>>> crossroads of technology and liberal arts". >>>> Let's see what the future brings. I've copied Craig Federighi and hope >>>> your idea will interest him as well. >>>> >>>> Best regards, Bart >>>> >>>> >>>>> Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 22:58:39 +0000 >>>>> From: Mark Wardle <[email protected]> >>>>> To: WebObjects Development <[email protected]> >>>>> Cc: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: WebObjects development >>>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >>>>> >>>>> Hi all. >>>>> >>>>> It is sad to hear the despondency permeating through the email list today. >>>>> >>>>> I think many of us have achieved so much with this technology stack, >>>>> solutions that would be much more difficult with other technologies. >>>>> >>>>> I think Apple is missing a trick here. Perhaps I am naive but isn’t their >>>>> focus on vertical integration? WebObjects is and could be the server side >>>>> answer for iOS in the enterprise. For me, we’re just about to deploy our >>>>> first iOS apps running on iPads in our outpatient clinics, linking to our >>>>> WebObjects applications handling all of the complex business logic that >>>>> we need in healthcare. We’ve achieved this on a shoestring and it’s due >>>>> to the great design - seen in WebObjects and of course, by logical >>>>> extension in the related frameworks inherited from NeXT in modern Apple >>>>> operating systems. >>>>> >>>>> Personally, I want Apple stuff in the enterprise - in my enterprise - in >>>>> my outpatient clinic. I think it would make a tremendous difference to >>>>> how we provide healthcare. WebObjects is such a good fit for iOS devices >>>>> I just cannot believe that Apple does not want to support such a great >>>>> and productive technology. >>>>> >>>>> Whatever the case, my WebObjects applications are still running and we >>>>> are getting more and more users here in this part of the UK! It is just a >>>>> shame Apple seems to have given up on it. >>>>> >>>>> I’ve copied in Tim Cook to this. At the back of my mind, I’m hoping he’ll >>>>> take an interest, realise overnight what a great technology this is and >>>>> how it can be a great product for both large and small enterprises, can >>>>> form part of a great technology stack and support iOS, and as such, >>>>> re-incarnate WebObjects - the technology we love! Mr Cook - could Apple >>>>> un-deprecate this technology please? It is really rather good! >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Dr. Mark Wardle >>>>> Consultant Neurologist, University Hospital Wales, Cardiff, UK >>>>> Email: [email protected] or [email protected] Twitter: @mwardle >>>>> Telephone: 02920745274 (secretary) or facsimile: 02920744166 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>>> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) >>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/joelb%40paperfree.net >>>> >>>> This email sent to [email protected] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) >>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jtayler%40oeinc.com >>> >>> This email sent to [email protected] >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/aaron%40chatnbike.com >> >> This email sent to [email protected] > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jeff%40netbrackets.com > > This email sent to [email protected]
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