Hallelujah! - hugi
> I think that is a poor way of looking at it. Pascal has put his heart and > soul and an amazing amount of effort and determination in the community for > many years. It would not exist were it not for Pascal. What we are primarily > discussing is not how to keep the WO Association going as it is, but how to > prevent our friend from being financially harmed by the end of the status > quo. That is my first and foremost consideration. Friends don’t leave > friends hanging. Period. > > Once that is taken care of, we can consider what is actually needed now and > how to best accomplish that. > > Chuck > > > > From: <[email protected]> on behalf > of jazz salsa <[email protected]> > Date: Thursday, May 12, 2016 at 8:40 AM > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Follow up on closure > > This way of working is weird to me. I make a proposal to form a new community > together and get zero response. > > Why would i spend 50$ to a "community" that is only about one person doing > all the work? And it is not clear if we get access to the wowodc 2016 stuff. > > It is time for change. Who wants this also? > > Let's start the migration after wowodc anyway. Two people offered hosting at > their companies. > > Regards Bart > > P.D. I will fix the spreadsheet > From: [email protected] > Sent: 12/05/2016 16:52 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Webobjects-dev Digest, Vol 13, Issue 183 > > Send Webobjects-dev mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/webobjects-dev > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Webobjects-dev digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Follow up on closure (Pascal Robert) > 2. Re: Follow up on closure (Michael Kondratov) > 3. Re: Follow up on closure (Hugi Thordarson) > 4. Re: Closure of WOCommunity Association (Jérémy DE ROYER) > 5. Re: Follow up on closure (Jérémy DE ROYER) > 6. Re: Follow up on closure (Ken Anderson) > 7. Re: Follow up on closure (Klaus Berkling) > 8. Re: Follow up on closure (Paul Yu) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 11:31:40 +0000 > From: Pascal Robert <[email protected]> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Follow up on closure > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > It seems the majority wants to keep the WOCommunity server alive until > WOWODC, so let's do that. > > Now, the reasons of why I wanted to shutdown everything: > > - The results of the surveys are not positive. Only 57% of respondents use WO > for new and current projects, 32% only for maintenance, the rest is moving > away or already done so. > > - Based on this, I expect to lose 10-12 WOWODC guests, so I calculated that > we needed 45 guests and made the arrangements based on that number. Sadly, we > are only 33 so far, and usually at that timeframe, we only get 4-5 > registrations. Hence the 6200$ deficit (now reduced to about 2100$). > > - Contributions to Wonder is next to nothing for the last year. > > - I was thinking that having a session about using Cayenne with WO would be a > great way to modernize WO, and hence generate interest, and looks like I was > wrong, or else we would have more people at WOWODC, not less. > > - At WOWODC 2014, we asked if people were using the master branch of Wonder, > and the vast majority said they are using their own fork. So why should we > keep Jenkins if most of you use their own forks? > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 09:14:26 -0500 > From: Michael Kondratov <[email protected]> > To: Pascal Robert <[email protected]>, [email protected] > Subject: Re: Follow up on closure > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Pascal, > There are also people like us that use WO for internal projects. I > have not been able to find any other platform that would warrant a move. It > was pretty clear to me that Apple discontinued WO good 15 years ago. Is it > really possible that only 50 people or so in the world that still use > WebObjects? Is there something that is better? (Or 99.999999..% use inferior > tools?) > > Michael > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On May 12, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Pascal Robert <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > It seems the majority wants to keep the WOCommunity server alive until > > WOWODC, so let's do that. > > > > Now, the reasons of why I wanted to shutdown everything: > > > > - The results of the surveys are not positive. Only 57% of respondents use > > WO for new and current projects, 32% only for maintenance, the rest is > > moving away or already done so. > > > > - Based on this, I expect to lose 10-12 WOWODC guests, so I calculated that > > we needed 45 guests and made the arrangements based on that number. Sadly, > > we are only 33 so far, and usually at that timeframe, we only get 4-5 > > registrations. Hence the 6200$ deficit (now reduced to about 2100$). > > > > - Contributions to Wonder is next to nothing for the last year. > > > > - I was thinking that having a session about using Cayenne with WO would be > > a great way to modernize WO, and hence generate interest, and looks like I > > was wrong, or else we would have more people at WOWODC, not less. > > > > - At WOWODC 2014, we asked if people were using the master branch of > > Wonder, and the vast majority said they are using their own fork. So why > > should we keep Jenkins if most of you use their own forks? > > _______________________________________________ > > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > > Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/michael%40aspireauctions.com > > > > This email sent to [email protected] > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 14:38:36 +0000 > From: Hugi Thordarson <[email protected]> > To: Michael Kondratov <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Follow up on closure > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > I feel rather bad and somewhat responsible for everything that’s going on > these days. I had no idea that a phonecall from Apple would result in this. > > I'm still using WO actively in numerous old and new projects, and I don’t see > that changing anytime soon. Being an opensource nut I’ve made numerous > attempts at “escaping” WO, but that sweet, sweet statefulness, lovely API, > KVC and WOLips just keeps dragging me back in. > > We need to find a way forward. > > - hugi > > > > > On 12. maí 2016, at 14:14, Michael Kondratov <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > Pascal, > > There are also people like us that use WO for internal projects. I > > have not been able to find any other platform that would warrant a move. It > > was pretty clear to me that Apple discontinued WO good 15 years ago. Is it > > really possible that only 50 people or so in the world that still use > > WebObjects? Is there something that is better? (Or 99.999999..% use > > inferior tools?) > > > > Michael > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On May 12, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Pascal Robert <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> It seems the majority wants to keep the WOCommunity server alive until > >> WOWODC, so let's do that. > >> > >> Now, the reasons of why I wanted to shutdown everything: > >> > >> - The results of the surveys are not positive. Only 57% of respondents use > >> WO for new and current projects, 32% only for maintenance, the rest is > >> moving away or already done so. > >> > >> - Based on this, I expect to lose 10-12 WOWODC guests, so I calculated > >> that we needed 45 guests and made the arrangements based on that number. > >> Sadly, we are only 33 so far, and usually at that timeframe, we only get > >> 4-5 registrations. Hence the 6200$ deficit (now reduced to about 2100$). > >> > >> - Contributions to Wonder is next to nothing for the last year. > >> > >> - I was thinking that having a session about using Cayenne with WO would > >> be a great way to modernize WO, and hence generate interest, and looks > >> like I was wrong, or else we would have more people at WOWODC, not less. > >> > >> - At WOWODC 2014, we asked if people were using the master branch of > >> Wonder, and the vast majority said they are using their own fork. So why > >> should we keep Jenkins if most of you use their own forks? > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > >> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/michael%40aspireauctions.com > >> > >> This email sent to [email protected] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > > Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/hugi%40karlmenn.is > > > > This email sent to [email protected] > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 14:42:10 +0000 > From: Jérémy DE ROYER <[email protected]> > To: WebObjects-Dev <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Closure of WOCommunity Association > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > I sign for a bronze membership to support the wocommunity that help us > everyday working with WebObjects and Wonder. > > Since 10 years, I don’t have the time and the money to fly to Montreal for > the wowodc. > > But, in the time of e-learning, online conference and social network, I’m > still surprising that it’s still not possible to assit to a e-wowodc, may be > with national theaters (Paris, London, Bruxels is not far away, Roma and > Berlin still a bit far). > > It could help us and the wo community to remain united and active… and to pay > each year the membership, if http://store.wocommunity.org/ stay alive (;-) > > Thank’s to take time reading me, > > Jérémy > > > Le 12 mai 2016 à 11:51, Theodore Petrosky <[email protected]> a écrit : > > > > I also added the bronze sponsorship! > > > > wish I could do more! > > > > > >> On May 12, 2016, at 5:13 AM, Markus Ruggiero <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> Bronce sponsor since 10 mins ago > >> > >> ---markus--- > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > >> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/tedpet5%40yahoo.com > >> > >> This email sent to [email protected] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > > Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jeremy.deroyer%40ingencys.net > > > > This email sent to [email protected] > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 14:42:55 +0000 > From: Jérémy DE ROYER <[email protected]> > To: Hugi Thordarson <[email protected]> > Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Follow up on closure > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > +1 > > Jérémy > > > Le 12 mai 2016 à 16:38, Hugi Thordarson <[email protected]> a écrit : > > > > I feel rather bad and somewhat responsible for everything that’s going on > > these days. I had no idea that a phonecall from Apple would result in this. > > > > I'm still using WO actively in numerous old and new projects, and I don’t > > see that changing anytime soon. Being an opensource nut I’ve made numerous > > attempts at “escaping” WO, but that sweet, sweet statefulness, lovely API, > > KVC and WOLips just keeps dragging me back in. > > > > We need to find a way forward. > > > > - hugi > > > > > > > >> On 12. maí 2016, at 14:14, Michael Kondratov <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> Pascal, > >> There are also people like us that use WO for internal projects. I > >> have not been able to find any other platform that would warrant a move. > >> It was pretty clear to me that Apple discontinued WO good 15 years ago. Is > >> it really possible that only 50 people or so in the world that still use > >> WebObjects? Is there something that is better? (Or 99.999999..% use > >> inferior tools?) > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>> On May 12, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Pascal Robert <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> It seems the majority wants to keep the WOCommunity server alive until > >>> WOWODC, so let's do that. > >>> > >>> Now, the reasons of why I wanted to shutdown everything: > >>> > >>> - The results of the surveys are not positive. Only 57% of respondents > >>> use WO for new and current projects, 32% only for maintenance, the rest > >>> is moving away or already done so. > >>> > >>> - Based on this, I expect to lose 10-12 WOWODC guests, so I calculated > >>> that we needed 45 guests and made the arrangements based on that number. > >>> Sadly, we are only 33 so far, and usually at that timeframe, we only get > >>> 4-5 registrations. Hence the 6200$ deficit (now reduced to about 2100$). > >>> > >>> - Contributions to Wonder is next to nothing for the last year. > >>> > >>> - I was thinking that having a session about using Cayenne with WO would > >>> be a great way to modernize WO, and hence generate interest, and looks > >>> like I was wrong, or else we would have more people at WOWODC, not less. > >>> > >>> - At WOWODC 2014, we asked if people were using the master branch of > >>> Wonder, and the vast majority said they are using their own fork. So why > >>> should we keep Jenkins if most of you use their own forks? > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > >>> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > >>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > >>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/michael%40aspireauctions.com > >>> > >>> This email sent to [email protected] > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > >> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/hugi%40karlmenn.is > >> > >> This email sent to [email protected] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > > Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jeremy.deroyer%40ingencys.net > > > > This email sent to [email protected] > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 10:44:57 -0400 > From: Ken Anderson <[email protected]> > To: Hugi Thordarson <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Follow up on closure > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hugi, > > I don’t think this had anything to do with you. I would not have pushed the > buttons you pushed - but so be it. Me, I prefer to let sleeping dragons… > sleep :) > > Pascal laid out the issues that brought him to his conclusion: > > - Less participation in WOnder > - Less attendance at WOWODC > - The math of 57% for new, and 32% for maintenance, but to me, that means > 89% are still active! I call this good! > > Personally, I don’t think these changes warrant shutting things down - but > clearly Pascal has had enough, and we all need to pick up the flag he has > carried for so long and so well. > > As Pascal has said the last time we were going to shut down, I’m guessing it > would be easier for someone in Canada to take over the association, but if > there’s no takers, I’m happy to help coordinate the migration to a US based > entity. > > Ken > > > > On May 12, 2016, at 10:38 AM, Hugi Thordarson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I feel rather bad and somewhat responsible for everything that’s going on > > these days. I had no idea that a phonecall from Apple would result in this. > > > > I'm still using WO actively in numerous old and new projects, and I don’t > > see that changing anytime soon. Being an opensource nut I’ve made numerous > > attempts at “escaping” WO, but that sweet, sweet statefulness, lovely API, > > KVC and WOLips just keeps dragging me back in. > > > > We need to find a way forward. > > > > - hugi > > > > > > > >> On 12. maí 2016, at 14:14, Michael Kondratov <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> Pascal, > >> There are also people like us that use WO for internal projects. I > >> have not been able to find any other platform that would warrant a move. > >> It was pretty clear to me that Apple discontinued WO good 15 years ago. Is > >> it really possible that only 50 people or so in the world that still use > >> WebObjects? Is there something that is better? (Or 99.999999..% use > >> inferior tools?) > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>> On May 12, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Pascal Robert <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> It seems the majority wants to keep the WOCommunity server alive until > >>> WOWODC, so let's do that. > >>> > >>> Now, the reasons of why I wanted to shutdown everything: > >>> > >>> - The results of the surveys are not positive. Only 57% of respondents > >>> use WO for new and current projects, 32% only for maintenance, the rest > >>> is moving away or already done so. > >>> > >>> - Based on this, I expect to lose 10-12 WOWODC guests, so I calculated > >>> that we needed 45 guests and made the arrangements based on that number. > >>> Sadly, we are only 33 so far, and usually at that timeframe, we only get > >>> 4-5 registrations. Hence the 6200$ deficit (now reduced to about 2100$). > >>> > >>> - Contributions to Wonder is next to nothing for the last year. > >>> > >>> - I was thinking that having a session about using Cayenne with WO would > >>> be a great way to modernize WO, and hence generate interest, and looks > >>> like I was wrong, or else we would have more people at WOWODC, not less. > >>> > >>> - At WOWODC 2014, we asked if people were using the master branch of > >>> Wonder, and the vast majority said they are using their own fork. So why > >>> should we keep Jenkins if most of you use their own forks? > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > >>> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > >>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > >>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/michael%40aspireauctions.com > >>> > >>> This email sent to [email protected] > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > >> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/hugi%40karlmenn.is > >> > >> This email sent to [email protected] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > > Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kenlists%40anderhome.com > > > > This email sent to [email protected] > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 07:48:01 -0700 > From: Klaus Berkling <[email protected]> > To: WebObjects Development <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Follow up on closure > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > On May 12, 2016, at 7:14 AM, Michael Kondratov <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > Pascal, > > There are also people like us that use WO for internal projects. I > > have not been able to find any other platform that would warrant a move. It > > was pretty clear to me that Apple discontinued WO good 15 years ago. Is it > > really possible that only 50 people or so in the world that still use > > WebObjects? Is there something that is better? (Or 99.999999..% use > > inferior tools?) > > > > commerzbank.de <http://commerzbank.de/> still uses WebObjects: > > https://www.commerzbank.de/formulare/WebObjects/FormCenter.woa/wa/default?path=/pk/de/Service/SP23_Anmeldung_OnlineBanking_Privat > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.apple.com/archives/webobjects-dev/attachments/20160512/fa4e70c7/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 10:51:13 -0400 > From: Paul Yu <[email protected]> > To: Hugi Þórðarson <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Follow up on closure > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hugi > > The state of WO and the WO community is not because of your persistence to > get a definitive statement from Apple. It is because there are no BIG > organizations that support this community. > > This community is stuck in purgatory. We can’t move forward because we may > infringe on Apple’s copyrights. We can’t move forward because there are > people here using old versions of the system and don’t want to move forward. > We can’t move forward because we can’t dedicate enough time to working on the > lower levels. We have too many people here that just want to say no. > > No BIG organization want to use this stuff because it is NOT OPEN SOURCE, it > is NOT COOl, it is NOT an active product, it does NOT have an active DEV > community, but it is a legal LIABILITY. Without a BIG organization > supporting it, there is no money. > > No startup unicorn will use the framework, because no VC would support it. > > My $0.02 > > Paul > > > On May 12, 2016, at 10:38 AM, Hugi Thordarson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I feel rather bad and somewhat responsible for everything that’s going on > > these days. I had no idea that a phonecall from Apple would result in this. > > > > I'm still using WO actively in numerous old and new projects, and I don’t > > see that changing anytime soon. Being an opensource nut I’ve made numerous > > attempts at “escaping” WO, but that sweet, sweet statefulness, lovely API, > > KVC and WOLips just keeps dragging me back in. > > > > We need to find a way forward. > > > > - hugi > > > > > > > >> On 12. maí 2016, at 14:14, Michael Kondratov <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> Pascal, > >> There are also people like us that use WO for internal projects. I > >> have not been able to find any other platform that would warrant a move. > >> It was pretty clear to me that Apple discontinued WO good 15 years ago. Is > >> it really possible that only 50 people or so in the world that still use > >> WebObjects? Is there something that is better? (Or 99.999999..% use > >> inferior tools?) > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>> On May 12, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Pascal Robert <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> It seems the majority wants to keep the WOCommunity server alive until > >>> WOWODC, so let's do that. > >>> > >>> Now, the reasons of why I wanted to shutdown everything: > >>> > >>> - The results of the surveys are not positive. Only 57% of respondents > >>> use WO for new and current projects, 32% only for maintenance, the rest > >>> is moving away or already done so. > >>> > >>> - Based on this, I expect to lose 10-12 WOWODC guests, so I calculated > >>> that we needed 45 guests and made the arrangements based on that number. > >>> Sadly, we are only 33 so far, and usually at that timeframe, we only get > >>> 4-5 registrations. Hence the 6200$ deficit (now reduced to about 2100$). > >>> > >>> - Contributions to Wonder is next to nothing for the last year. > >>> > >>> - I was thinking that having a session about using Cayenne with WO would > >>> be a great way to modernize WO, and hence generate interest, and looks > >>> like I was wrong, or else we would have more people at WOWODC, not less. > >>> > >>> - At WOWODC 2014, we asked if people were using the master branch of > >>> Wonder, and the vast majority said they are using their own fork. So why > >>> should we keep Jenkins if most of you use their own forks? > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > >>> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > >>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > >>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/michael%40aspireauctions.com > >>> > >>> This email sent to [email protected] > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > >> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/hugi%40karlmenn.is > >> > >> This email sent to [email protected] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > > Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/pyu%40mac.com > > > > This email sent to [email protected] > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Webobjects-dev mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/webobjects-dev > > End of Webobjects-dev Digest, Vol 13, Issue 183 > *********************************************** > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/hugi%40karlmenn.is > > This email sent to [email protected] _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. 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