Thanks too. I agree competition is good thing, especially when it
gives you real/ conceptually different alternatives.
I'll follow your blog with great interest - not to start flames. We
can allways learn from each other, right?
Cheers,
Eelco
On 9/4/05, Geert Bevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Eelco,
>
> thanks for the balanced comments. You're right, TSS has serious
> problems and it sometimes took me hours to post my comments after
> many replies. You're also right that I shouldn't have used the word
> 'lies', sorry about that.
>
> I'd like to discuss the 'XML configuration' part one day, but not now
> and not here. I'll probably blog about it in a little while, and if
> you pick it up, we can discuss it then.
>
> A short note about the templates is that everything you do with them
> is purely layout related, so as soon as you set a value, it's already
> content (ie. text) and not a variable. Also, they are not stored in a
> map, there's a lot of intelligent deferred handling going on, but
> this is not the place to detail it. The RIFE wiki and docs contain
> info about that, if you would be interested in knowing more.
>
> Anyway, good luck with your Wicket efforts, it's definitely a very
> clean approach to a pure component framework. Healthy competition and
> different views can only be good and catalyzing. I just wanted to
> correct what I found to be wrong ;-)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Geert
>
> On 04 Sep 2005, at 23:34, Eelco Hillenius wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I was afraid this might happen. Shouldn't have answered. But well...
> >
> > You are right that I draw some wrong conclusions (which is something
> > different than lying!) I allready came by Rife years ago, and put it
> > in the mvc corner right away. However, just today I read the server
> > side discussion and the fact that Bruce Tate was very positive about
> > Rife triggered me to take a closer look.
> >
> > I left two comments on the server side, both possitive, but I looks
> > like they didn't come through. I got a warning about failed
> > transactions, so TSS seems to be messed up here and there.
> >
> > Anyway, without going into the gritty details (I don't know Rife good
> > enough for that, and I just don't have the time), I think it is great
> > that Rife fills in a place that is unique in the web framework space.
> > It follows an approach that is not used by other frameworks, and that
> > alone means that it gives Java developers more real choice.
> >
> > So that's great. Now about those remarks I made. As I wrote I just
> > took a quick look at the examples, and gave these remarks, which I'll
> > annotate using your defense:
> >
> > * page scripting (with an exotic notation);
> >
> > - Yep, you're right. Rife does not use page scripting. I didn't look
> > well enough. Sorry about that.
> >
> > * xml configuration;
> >
> > - I don't care you don't /have/ to use xml configuration. Neither do I
> > care /what/ you configure with it. It is a fact that a large part of
> > the Rife manual is about XML configuration. The fact that you can do
> > this another way (same case for JSF btw) is good, but it doesn't look
> > the default way to me. I had a similar discussion about WebFlow with
> > Keith Donald, who sent me an angry email some time ago that I had the
> > nerve to not like his framework because I thought there was a lot of
> > xml configuration. Again, I am in the role of a reader who wants to
> > assess frameworks; I look at the standard way of doing things as
> > follows from reading the manual.
> >
> > * weak typed maps to pass context variables to the view;
> >
> > So what is this?
> > mTemplate = getHtmlTemplate("dynamic");
> > mTemplate.setValue("phrase", "Good evening!");
> > Template template = getHtmlTemplate("dynamic");
> >
> > for (int i = 0; i < langs.length; ++i)
> > {
> > template.setValue("lang", langs[i]);
> > template.setValue("name", "lang_" + langs[i]);
> > template.appendBlock("langs", "lang_block");
> > }
> >
> > Maybe I choose the wrong words. But what I see here looks like
> > flattening objects in order to use them in your template. And the
> > template context variables are conceptually stored in a flat Map.
> >
> > * is not component based (no re-use, state, etc);
> >
> > Here I was wrong again. Though it is not component based like Wicket,
> > it does have it's own component based flavor, with inheritance,
> > (processing) state, etc.
> >
> > Part of the comments I left on TSS was that I think Rife is a great
> > improvement over the web MVC frameworks. Too bad I didn't give it a
> > better look some time back. But then again, same goes for Tapestry.
> >
> > * etc.
> >
> > Rife is just not my cup of tea. That's the etc. Stuff like '<!--V
> > 'SUBMISSION:PARAMS:credentials'/-->' works, but it's just not
> > something I get wild about. Totally a taste thing.
> >
> > Now, would I like Rife better than Wicket? Nope. Sure, I invested
> > mucho tiempo in it and thus am based by that and more. But the main
> > difference to me is that Rife lets you focus on the 'how' instead of
> > the (OO) 'what'. I just like to think in object hierarchies and do as
> > much as I can with Java. Wicket is still a bit immature compared to
> > Rife when it comes to navigation/ screen flow (the continuation
> > concept is on my list to have a better look at sometime) and Rife
> > seems to have excellent support for integrating with the other system
> > layers. The scaffolding is nice too, though Wicket has some of that as
> > well. Scaffolding is definitively something we'll keep in mind when
> > building further.
> >
> > I like the front page of Rife for it's objective story, and I think
> > your answer on TSS was well balanced. I'm sorry we're getting into an
> > argument here. I wouldn't care about taking on any of the 1000 mvc
> > frameworks, but I like Rife too much to go into battle mode. It's on
> > my list of frameworks to reccommend, alongside Tapestry, Echo and JSF
> > (the latter for manager types).
> >
> > I propose to let this rest here, or - if you really want that - take
> > it public to e.g JavaLobby.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Eelco
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9/4/05, Geert Bevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Eelco,
> >>
> >> I don't mean to start a flamewar either, but please, if you don't
> >> know another framework, don't spread such utter lies about it. In
> >> fact, none if what you said true. More even, it's totally the
> >> opposite in every case.
> >>
> >> Geertjan, it would be nice of you to forward this mail to your
> >> colleague too.
> >>
> >>
> >>> In short, Rife is/ uses:
> >>>
> >>
> >> ... is not, doesn't use ...
> >>
> >>
> >>> * page scripting (with an exotic notation);
> >>>
> >>
> >> RIFE templates contain no code at all.
> >>
> >> This has been very clearly explained on the site and in the wiki.
> >> You're just drawing conclusions from snippets you saw in the
> >> examples, I suppose.
> >>
> >> http://rifers.org/features/bidirectional+multi-format+template+engine
> >>
> >> Even in a comment on The ServerSide, this his been recognized as one
> >> of RIFE's strengths:
> >>
> >> http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=36260#183430
> >>
> >>
> >>> * xml configuration;
> >>>
> >>
> >> The XML you see for the site is not configuration. It's the
> >> declaration of logic flow and data flow that provides a lot of the
> >> advanced features. This declaration can be done in XML, but that's
> >> just one interface to do so. Java, Groovy and Janino are supported
> >> too. Nothing prevents you from doing this at runtime either, which is
> >> exactly what we do in RIFE/Crud. This is a project that generates
> >> entire sites (like RoR's scaffolding) at runtime without code
> >> generation. It's all done at runtime and still customizable. Thanks
> >> to the component object model, everything that's provided by RIFE/
> >> Crud can be integrated into any other RIFE site.
> >>
> >> http://rifers.org/wiki/display/RIFE/Site+structure+and+element
> >> +declaration+without+XML
> >>
> >>
> >>> * weak typed maps to pass context variables to the view;
> >>>
> >>
> >> No maps are set in the view at all. It doesn't even work with
> >> variables. You merely set values to content placeholders.
> >>
> >> http://rifers.org/docs/usersguide/
> >> ch03.html#sect1_numberguess_templates
> >>
> >>
> >>> * is not component based (no re-use, state, etc);
> >>>
> >>
> >> Again, totally wrong. This is even explained on the homepage of the
> >> website http://rifers.org/about :
> >>
> >> "RIFE's design provides the best of request-based and component-based
> >> approaches and blends them together in a consistent component object
> >> model."
> >>
> >> More info for you about this here, I suppose:
> >> http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=36260#183215
> >>
> >>
> >>> * etc.
> >>>
> >>
> >> etc what ... ?
> >>
> >>
> >>> Again, I don't want to get into a flame war hear (in case Geert
> >>> finds
> >>> this message :)), but it is very different from Wicket. And it's not
> >>>
> >>
> >> Fair enough, that I can understand, since Wicket is not my cup of tea
> >> either. Please just try to refrain from writing mails like this in
> >> the future. If you want, we can continue this discussion elsewhere to
> >> not spam the list.
> >>
> >>
> >>> my cup of tea to be honest. Though the site and logo looks very
> >>> nice.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Thanks for the compliment :-)
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Geert
> >>
> >> --
> >> Geert Bevin Uwyn bvba
> >> "Use what you need" Avenue de Scailmont 34
> >> http://www.uwyn.com 7170 Manage, Belgium
> >> gbevin[remove] at uwyn dot com Tel +32 64 84 80 03
> >>
> >> PGP Fingerprint : 4E21 6399 CD9E A384 6619 719A C8F4 D40D 309F D6A9
> >> Public PGP key : available at servers pgp.mit.edu, wwwkeys.pgp.net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >> Practices
> >> Agile & Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects & Teams *
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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> > SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference & EXPO
> > September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle
> > Practices
> > Agile & Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects & Teams *
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>
> --
> Geert Bevin Uwyn bvba
> "Use what you need" Avenue de Scailmont 34
> http://www.uwyn.com 7170 Manage
> gbevin[remove] at uwyn dot com Tel +32 64 84 80 03
>
> PGP Fingerprint : 4E21 6399 CD9E A384 6619 719A C8F4 D40D 309F D6A9
> Public PGP key : available at servers pgp.mit.edu, wwwkeys.pgp.net
>
>
>
>
>
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> September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices
> Agile & Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects & Teams * Testing & QA
> Security * Process Improvement & Measurement * http://www.sqe.com/bsce5sf
> _______________________________________________
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