Sorry, but is that the way you react on critism? Cu, Dave
Jonathan Locke wrote:
i don't have a graphic equalizer that's going to compensate. i think we're done talking.David Liebeherr wrote:Jonathan Locke wrote:David Liebeherr wrote:I quite long enough. But i guess because of fact that you answer only with one non-context question to my mail that you will not even think about the meaning of what i said, right?no. it just pissed me off enough that it took a while to respond properly.Rather than bother around with who i am and how long i have been doing something you should just engage with what i said!Don't challenge with me, challange with my arguments, please.done."i think you're awfully, awfully full of yourself" <- do you call this done?Strange interpretation of done, i guess...I would like to have an information/fact based discussion not a flame-war...so would i. but talking to you already sounds like debating the christian right on abortion or explaining evolution in kansas.In that case you might have to adjust your graphical equalizer...So again. Please stop bothring with me as a person. Please keep the discussion straight to the arguments.Cu, DaveCu, Dave Jonathan Locke wrote:how long have you been programming? David Liebeherr wrote:Uh ohh, i started reading the dicussion about interfaces in wicket. I think Eleco and Jonathan might be wrong in some ways.>One /very/ important reason not to use interfaces in this case is that: > interfaces are hard to evolve. Interfaces have to be pretty darn stable > before even considering throwing them out in the public, as there is no > way (not without a tough fight at least) you can alter it later on -> even adding a new method will break all clients.He sais that interfaces have to be more stable than an object without interface.But he misses a very important fact:Assume you have "String str = new String()" String is a concrete class. but: String in this context is _ALSO_ an interface! Every reference is an interface no mather if it's a concrete class or an interface/abstract class!And i think it should be not that hard to design proper interfaces! >jonathan: interfaces should always be a set of methods that you > cannot ever imagine extending "interface B extends A" ? interface inheritance is fun, isn't it? :-) > [22:43] jonathan: my ideal number of methods in an interface is 1 > [22:43] jonathan: ;-) > [22:44] jonathan: 2 is okay in some cases > [22:44] jonathan: 3 often should be re-thoughti don't see what's the sens of defining a random number as an limit for number of methos in an interface. an interface should be designed by the needs of the context and the purposal.i just disagree with him! >I wonder what it is you want > to do with a proxy that you can"t do by simply subclassing? Or AOP?He considers to use such a complex thing like AOP but refuses to use such a basic thing like Interfaces?Did you and your colegues read the links i sent in my last mail? If not i suggest it would be a good idea to do so. It's worth it, trust me! >Johan Compagner wrote:> But this is not really possible because the internals of page are pretty> importand for wicket to let it workThis is a serious indication that the design has some flaws in it. A design should always be as interchangebale and modular as possible.Again: I think in the discussion it's missed that you can even resuse an implementation in a interfaces based design by delegation... And it ignores the fact that you can extend interfaces as well (interface inheritance is a nice thing)... I can't imagine what's so hard to have a Page just as Interface. If you can not deal with client objects as interfaced objects you have a problem in your design. I do use interfaces every day and i have never ever had a big problem with that. It's all about how familiar and comfortable you with good modular design pratics. Loosly coupling is the key word! and loosly coupling is possible. you may have to think a bit more about your design, but it safes you so much time later...Maybe if i have some time i will rewrite a very little part of wicket to use interfaces to show that it's definetly not a problem to use interfaces and that you will get good benefits from it. Btw: A good design isn't done in a sec, but it's worth to thake the time to do so...Another thing i don't understand is, that some ppl sometimes say that the refuse to use interfaces on wicket but sometimes there are interfaces used in wicket. So if you can use an interface for a sessionFactory then why can't you use an interface for the session itself?Well, however, i think when wicket reaches 2.0 and it's clear enough which functionalities are implemented i may be a good idea to review the source and move over to use interfaces where they make sense...And one thing not to forget: Wicket uses "wicket:id" tags to loosly couple html with the logic-code. That is the most valuable thing about wicket! But it's a bad thing to not continue the loosly coupling aproach in the api. Think about it! Loosly compling on the html/code side is the key thing that makes wicket better than other frameworks. So continue to use that in the api and you have done the best way that is possible with java!And please remeber: It's cunstructive critism which i try to provide. I just want to get wicket as the best what's possible bc the basic ideas of wicket are great!Thanx for your attention, DavePS: I don't say i know the overall truth i just provided my toughts :-)Juergen Donnerstag wrote:David,we did have a very hot discussion about that topic just a week or two ago. Please check the mail archiv (gmane) for details. But I can tellyou it was a very deliberate decison to implement it the way it is. Juergen On 8/2/05, David Liebeherr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Hi Juergen, Juergen Donnerstag wrote:David,yes you're right we have to work on the docs, has been on our list and is under construction. Did you check out our wiki and (the outdated) user guide. it should provide at a beginner some inside into Wicket.You mentioned you would simplifiy the API even further. You mentionedIModel. Anything else that comes into your mind?I my gosh, do you realy want to get me started on that? :-) No, for real: There are lot's of things that need very much simplification. When i have some time, we may discuss that in detail (if you are interested) in a chat or something like that (Log of chat goes to maillinglist/wiki of course). One of the much important things is to realize the "programm to an interface, not to an implementation" principle. For exmaple: Session should be an Interface and SessionImpl should be (one!) implementation of it. Btw: Don't name interfaces with a I prefix, that is not so good. It should be always like that: Car exmaple: interface Car {}; class CarImpl impements Car {}; or class BmwImpl implements Car{}; I know ppl have different opinions about such things, but the idiscussed those things for a rather long time with a lot of developersand some very very good (actually one of the best programmers outthere). I have lot's of serious reasons why i think you should follow this naming convention. And the most important thing is: Use interfacesrather then concrete implementation! And another very very thing is: Use delegation rather than concrete inheritance! Again, i have very serious reasons why i think that way.And it does not mean much more work to do with proper coding tools (LikeIntelliJ IDEA). I think the Idea of Wicket is geniusly!Especialy the part that code is attached to free placeable tags with aproper wicket:id!But i think at this point the API needs a revision to simplify it andto realy follow some very important rules (like avoiding concrete inheritance). Btw: have a look on that: http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-08-2003/jw-0801-toolbox.html AND AFTER THAT ALSO READ THAT! --> http://jtiger.org/articles/why-extends-is-not-evil.htmlIt explains very very well what's the problem with concrete inheritance.And last but not least:I think you core developers have done a very good job and i'm very happyto use wicket!Everything i said (and will say) is not meant as a complain i realy want to participate in wicket and to make it the best WebApp framework that exists (And i think wicket can reach that target! If i think about allthat XMl-Config files crap like with Struts and JSF :-)) So please always thake what i say at what is it meant to be: Constructive critism. Thanx again for your Work, DaveJuergen On 8/2/05, David Liebeherr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Juergen Donnerstag wrote:Sorry, I guess except the javadoc there is no extra doc on it. What isyour question? Signin and Signin2 and not very complex.I think this is precisely the Problem.I found it already out by myself, but it took me some time to find andunderstand that the key thing is the checkAccess-method.You think it is very simple code. But you are one of the Developers that wrote the Libs, so you know what checkAccess do and you know that you do not have to search in the WebApplication-Class code to search where itis redirected to the Login-Page.So i think the problem is for outsiders and newbees of the project manymany things are not so clear as you might think.I think the lack of good Documentation - and by documentation i don't mean a simple doc of the API methods, rather a documentation describes the realtionships between components and how to use them - is one of thebiggest problems (or todos) for wicket.Another Problem is, that's at least my personal opinion (and please thake it as constructive critic and not just as a complain) is that the api is yet to complex. I thought one of the main goals of wicket was to keep the learning curve as low as possible. But the api is to complex for that i think. Especialy the IModel API is very complex and i thinkit would be a very good idea to simplify it much more.I mean at this time i am a newbee to wicket for my self. But that is good bc that way i can provide the "sight of a newbee". Developers ofthe proect may thing that something is "quite easy", but if i'm adeveloper of the project i know too much already to tell if a thing canbe easy understood. But however thanks for your help, DaveJuergen On 8/1/05, David Liebeherr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Is there any documentation/tutorial available for the Signin Exmaple?I realy have some problems understanding how it works. Thanx, Dave PS: Wicket ROCKS! -------------------------------------------------------SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. 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