No, I actually disagree. There is a number of English Wikipedia users who advocate banning Wikidata completely (I mean, not banning it as a project, but banning any direct interaction with Wikidata). Some of them are reasonable, some of them are not reasonable. Some of their arguments have merit, other arguments do not (for instance, one argument frequently repeated is that everything what shows up on a Wikipedia page should be in the code of the page - whereas it is not true already for many years for pages using complex templates such as railway lines etc). If we just ignore this, they open an RfC at some point and ban Wikidata. Also, discussing arguments help to convince those who are sane that at least something from Wikidata can be eventually used. There are of course always people who are centered on the Default Language Wikipedia and do not care about other projects, but completely ignoring the argument would not help here.
Cheers Yaroslav On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com> wrote: > Yes the hostility is so general that it is pointless to try to discuss > anything with those anti-WD people at this point. We can better disregard > such discussions and focus on ways to help any Wikipedia editors who are > eager to tap into WD resources, such as enabling people to easily add high > quality references to Wikipedia in cases of articles that currently have > zero references, for example. I think that was the original idea behind the > cite-Q thing before the implementation got completely derailed, wasn't it? > The main question in this type of situation, namely where Wikidata has > something truly useful that Wikipedia lacks, is how to indicate this to > potential editor/readers at the Wikipedia-level? Maybe some sort of basic > gadget that indicates the number of statements in the associated item? > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> There is also a more general and very useful discussion of the same >> issues at this page >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikidata/2017_S >> tate_of_affairs >> >> (check recent edits, last 5 days or so). >> >> Since it is not related to any decision-making (at least not yet) I would >> expect it is easier to comment there, though some editors are really >> hostile (I was at some point labeled as a "part of Wikidata crowd" in a >> negative sense and had to point out that I have 15 times as many edits on >> the English Wikipedia than the editor who was attacking me). >> >> Cheers >> Yaroslav >> >> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Yes Yaroslav, I totally agree with you (and don't worry, I wouldn't >>> dream of commenting there). On the other hand, this is extremely relevant >>> for the Wikidata mailing list and I am really grateful to Dario for posting >>> about it, because I had no idea. I stopped following that "2017 state of >>> affairs" thing when it first got ugly back in January. I suggest that in >>> cases where (as Dario suggests) highly structured and superior data from >>> Wikidata *could* be used in Wikipedia, that we create some sort of property >>> to indicate this on Wikidata, along the lines of the P31->Q17362920 we use >>> to show that a certain Wikipedia has a pending merge problem. If the >>> information is ever used on that Wikipedia (either with or without that >>> "Cite-Q" template) then the property for that specific Wikipedia should be >>> removed. Ideally this property could be used as a qualifier at the >>> statement level (so e.g. for paintings, a statement on a collection >>> property for a painting that it was stolen and rediscovered, or on a >>> significant event property that it was restored and reattributed, or that >>> it was owned by the Hitler museum and stored it the depot in Linz during >>> WWII, etc). >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks Dario. >>>> >>>> May I please add that whereas the deletion discussion is of course open >>>> to everyone, a sudden influx of users who are not regular editors of the >>>> English Wikipedia will be looked at extremely negatively. Please be >>>> considerate. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Yaroslav >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Dario Taraborelli < >>>> dtarabore...@wikimedia.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey folks, >>>>> >>>>> I wanted to draw your attention to a deletion nomination discussion >>>>> for an experimental template – {{Cite Q}} >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cite_Q> – pulling >>>>> bibliographic data from Wikidata: >>>>> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discus >>>>> sion/Log/2017_September_15#Template:Cite_Q >>>>> >>>>> As you'll see, there is significant resistance against the broader >>>>> usage of a template which exemplifies how structured bibliographic data in >>>>> WIkidata could be reused across Wikimedia projects. >>>>> >>>>> I personally think many of the concerns brought up by editors who >>>>> support the deletion request are legitimate. As the editor who nominated >>>>> the template for deletion notes: "The existence of the template is one >>>>> thing; the advocacy to use this systematically is another one altogether. >>>>> Anybody seeking that kind of systematic, radical change in Wikipedia must >>>>> get consensus for that in Wikipedia first. Being BOLD is fine but has its >>>>> limits, and this kind of thing is one of them." >>>>> >>>>> I find myself in agreement with this statement, which I believe >>>>> applies to much more than just bibliographic data from Wikidata: it's >>>>> about >>>>> virtually any kind of data and contents reused across projects governed by >>>>> different policies and expectations. I think what's happening is that an >>>>> experimental template – primarily meant to showcase how data reuse from >>>>> Wikidata *might *work – is perceived as a norm for how references >>>>> *will* or *should* work in the future. >>>>> >>>>> If you're involved in the WikiCite initiative, and are considering >>>>> participating in the deletion discussion, I encourage you to keep a >>>>> constructive tone and understand the perspective of people who are >>>>> concerned about the use and misuse of this template. >>>>> >>>>> As one of the WikiCite organizers, I see the success of the initiative >>>>> as coming from rich, highly curated data that other projects will want to >>>>> reuse, and from technical and usability advances for all contributors, not >>>>> from giving an impression that the goal is to use Wikidata to subvert how >>>>> other Wikimedia communities do their job. I'll post a note explaining my >>>>> perspective. >>>>> >>>>> Dario >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikidata mailing list >>>>> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikidata mailing list >>>> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata mailing list >>> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata mailing list >> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata mailing list > Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata > >
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