I second what Amir is saying, although I understand the heartbreak. Ido
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 4:10 PM, <wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org>wrote: > Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > wikimedia-l-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive (Andrea Zanni) > 2. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive (Chris Keating) > 3. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive > (Amir E. Aharoni) > 4. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive (Milos Rancic) > 5. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive > (Amir E. Aharoni) > 6. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive (Milos Rancic) > 7. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive (Milos Rancic) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:18:53 +0200 > From: Andrea Zanni <zanni.andre...@gmail.com> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to > survive > Message-ID: > <CAC=VxyZAz5t13GKr9P8zFtNztQOiMwgJo+_-eECzZ-g3w= > e...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > [snip] > > For the things we could do, I quote form other people: > * encourage Wikisource, Commons, Wiktionary as primary projects for > new/endangered languages. > You could scan books or documents if the language is written, or record > audio/interviews and put that on Commons if t the language is just oral. or > we could do both. > * we can work on a "kickstart Wikisource" workflow, we are alreading > discussing this on the Wikisource mailing list (Ganesh and other Nepalese > folks are interested in developing a Nepalese Wikisource). > * we can work on https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary and try > to takle the huge challenge of a real semantic wiktionary using Wikidata. > That's a tough one, but i can't wait it to happen. > > All these 3 points are mid-term and reachable. as others said, they are > just tools, and for preserving a language, not make it survive. > > Aubrey > > (sorry for poor english, just before coffee) > > > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni < > amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote: > > > This is not quite correct. It's very hard, but possible. But Wikimedia > > alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be one of the tools that are used by > the > > cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of these languages needs > > people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and, dare I > > say, [[Eliezer Ben-Yehuda]]. That's the sine qua non. Wikimedia is just a > > tool - a very important one, but not the main one. > > > > > > -- > > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי > > http://aharoni.wordpress.com > > “We're living in pieces, > > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore > > > > > > 2014-04-22 14:20 GMT+03:00 Ting Chen <wing.phil...@gmx.de>: > > > > > Hello Milos, > > > > > > welcome back. > > > > > > Basically I agree with your attitude, with one difference: > > > > > > I don't think that anyone can help languages survive. What we can do, > is > > > to help conserve them. > > > > > > Greetings > > > Ting > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 13:25:54 +0100 > From: Chris Keating <chriskeatingw...@gmail.com> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to > survive > Message-ID: > <CAFche1o5L12Qvr30cPJaCp7O47iVMF2ema6YZn=JX72W= > ve...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > I'd certainly take quite a broad view of which languages fulfill our > mission. Certainly I wouldn't be comfortable with arguments as simple as > "All people who speak Y also read X, so there's no purpose putting > resources into Y". > > Wikimedia UK does little work with Gaelic, but quite a bit with Welsh; I > wonder if Robin Owain reads this list? He's a good person to speak to about > this. > > Chris > > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 12:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni < > amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote: > > > This is not quite correct. It's very hard, but possible. But Wikimedia > > alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be one of the tools that are used by > the > > cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of these languages needs > > people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and, dare I > > say, [[Eliezer Ben-Yehuda]]. That's the sine qua non. Wikimedia is just a > > tool - a very important one, but not the main one. > > > > > > -- > > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי > > http://aharoni.wordpress.com > > “We're living in pieces, > > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore > > > > > > 2014-04-22 14:20 GMT+03:00 Ting Chen <wing.phil...@gmx.de>: > > > > > Hello Milos, > > > > > > welcome back. > > > > > > Basically I agree with your attitude, with one difference: > > > > > > I don't think that anyone can help languages survive. What we can do, > is > > > to help conserve them. > > > > > > Greetings > > > Ting > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:37:40 +0300 > From: "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to > survive > Message-ID: > <CACtNa8uNg= > 1hrb8kj3lpfmbruj139outp+o-wyhz9efm9z1...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > I cannot cite anything, but there should be studies that show that even > though most people are "bilingual" or reported as "bilingual" in their > regional language and another major language, they are more comfortable in > getting education in their regional language. I'm pretty sure that there > are such cases, and they should be given priority. Projects that are > focused on language revitalization per se should be given less priority > when resources are limited, even though it breaks my heart to say this. > > > -- > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי > http://aharoni.wordpress.com > “We're living in pieces, > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore > > > 2014-04-22 15:25 GMT+03:00 Chris Keating <chriskeatingw...@gmail.com>: > > > I'd certainly take quite a broad view of which languages fulfill our > > mission. Certainly I wouldn't be comfortable with arguments as simple as > > "All people who speak Y also read X, so there's no purpose putting > > resources into Y". > > > > Wikimedia UK does little work with Gaelic, but quite a bit with Welsh; I > > wonder if Robin Owain reads this list? He's a good person to speak to > about > > this. > > > > Chris > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 12:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni < > > amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote: > > > > > This is not quite correct. It's very hard, but possible. But Wikimedia > > > alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be one of the tools that are used by > > the > > > cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of these languages needs > > > people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and, dare > I > > > say, [[Eliezer Ben-Yehuda]]. That's the sine qua non. Wikimedia is > just a > > > tool - a very important one, but not the main one. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי > > > http://aharoni.wordpress.com > > > “We're living in pieces, > > > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore > > > > > > > > > 2014-04-22 14:20 GMT+03:00 Ting Chen <wing.phil...@gmx.de>: > > > > > > > Hello Milos, > > > > > > > > welcome back. > > > > > > > > Basically I agree with your attitude, with one difference: > > > > > > > > I don't think that anyone can help languages survive. What we can do, > > is > > > > to help conserve them. > > > > > > > > Greetings > > > > Ting > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:43:56 +0200 > From: Milos Rancic <mill...@gmail.com> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to > survive > Message-ID: > <CAHPiQ2FmWff_QDwew9SpW= > t0nxr+ezehjzbsveqpz0aa9_e...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni > <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote: > > This is not quite correct. It's very hard, but possible. But Wikimedia > > alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be one of the tools that are used by > the > > cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of these languages needs > > people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and, dare I > > say, [[Eliezer Ben-Yehuda]]. That's the sine qua non. Wikimedia is just a > > tool - a very important one, but not the main one. > > In the case of Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic, there is a not widely known > fact that he was actually hard worker willing to listen others. He was > a villager from Serbia, sent to Austria and Germany to learn how to > help his people. > > In relation to gathering spoken folk tradition, he was listening brothers > Grimm. > > But, more importantly, the ideology and actually the final form of the > modern Serbian Cyrillic alphabet, as well as Vuk's logistics in Vienna > were the product of a Slovene [[Jernej Kopitar]]. > > In our case, we need to find those hard workers all over the small > ethno-linguistic communities, explain what they should do for > themselves and give them logistics. That, of course, *if* they are > willing to that part of job for their communities and *if* they want > to build their knowledge in the form of Wikimedia projects. > > BTW, I know that what I said above sounds enlightenmentish, with all > of the traps of that way of thinking. However, it's not about how they > should live. It's about how they could adopt our technology *if* they > want. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:49:28 +0300 > From: "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to > survive > Message-ID: > < > cactna8t_1j4h18_pg3dq3ewdnwiaeeszx1d+jntn3y449vc...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > With this I agree. If this depended on me, I'd give this resources. > > > -- > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי > http://aharoni.wordpress.com > “We're living in pieces, > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore > > > 2014-04-22 15:43 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic <mill...@gmail.com>: > > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni > > <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote: > > > This is not quite correct. It's very hard, but possible. But Wikimedia > > > alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be one of the tools that are used by > > the > > > cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of these languages needs > > > people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and, dare > I > > > say, [[Eliezer Ben-Yehuda]]. That's the sine qua non. Wikimedia is > just a > > > tool - a very important one, but not the main one. > > > > In the case of Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic, there is a not widely known > > fact that he was actually hard worker willing to listen others. He was > > a villager from Serbia, sent to Austria and Germany to learn how to > > help his people. > > > > In relation to gathering spoken folk tradition, he was listening brothers > > Grimm. > > > > But, more importantly, the ideology and actually the final form of the > > modern Serbian Cyrillic alphabet, as well as Vuk's logistics in Vienna > > were the product of a Slovene [[Jernej Kopitar]]. > > > > In our case, we need to find those hard workers all over the small > > ethno-linguistic communities, explain what they should do for > > themselves and give them logistics. That, of course, *if* they are > > willing to that part of job for their communities and *if* they want > > to build their knowledge in the form of Wikimedia projects. > > > > BTW, I know that what I said above sounds enlightenmentish, with all > > of the traps of that way of thinking. However, it's not about how they > > should live. It's about how they could adopt our technology *if* they > > want. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:54:31 +0200 > From: Milos Rancic <mill...@gmail.com> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to > survive > Message-ID: > < > cahpiq2gdw7qjd6lytysvnctgjznwsdrhqcjo55a2y5_mfyh...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Amir E. Aharoni > <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote: > > Projects that are focused on language revitalization per se should be > > given less priority when resources are limited, even though it breaks > > my heart to say this. > > I don't think that we are dealing here with limited resources. After > we show what we are doing and how successful we are (assuming that > we'll be successful, of course :D ), I am sure that funds won't be > limited just on WMF's budget. > > However, we are dealing with limited resources at the beginning and, > basically, not seen scale of the job, with a lot of potential issues. > I don't think that we'll come into the stable phase in less than five > years of work. And it's true that this is enough time to see negative > changes in some of the languages. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:09:52 +0200 > From: Milos Rancic <mill...@gmail.com> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to > survive > Message-ID: > <CAHPiQ2FOU4CQ1=_+nE22aWoz= > py4ofp1sndc1ufpgovdefb...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:25 PM, Chris Keating > <chriskeatingw...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Wikimedia UK does little work with Gaelic, but quite a bit with Welsh; I > > wonder if Robin Owain reads this list? He's a good person to speak to > about > > this. > > I mentioned Scots Gaelic with a good reason. Not counting languages > with so small number of speakers, that statistics for them are not > relevant and not counting Sanskrit, known to a lot of linguists, > gd.wikipedia.org is Wikipedia with the highest relative number of > active editors. > > That means that it's the best starting point to raise that number from > 157 per million to ~1000 per million. If WM UK would be successful in > achieving that goal, we'd know that it's possible. And we'll have some > ideas how to do that. > > [1] http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/Sitemap.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > End of Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 121, Issue 85 > ******************************************** > -- -Ido "There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't." 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