The problem with using simple language in complex topics is that simple language almost always needs far more words to say the same thing. The simpler the language, the more words are needed, assuming that the original was not unnecessarily verbose. This is why specialist terms exist: they require previous knowledge, but can reduce the number of words needed to explain. The alternative is dumbing down, lies-to-children, Wittgenstein's ladder, and that sort of thing. Ideally all of these options would be available to the reader, who could choose the level which works best for themselves.
Editors who have invested a lot of effort to produce a technically correct and comprehensive explanation will nor look kindly at dumbing down the article, but may be entirely unconcerned about an alternative explanation provided in parallel with the more correct version. To a large extent, that is the intention of the lead specification, but one person's excessively complex is another's needless dumbing down. Procrustean methods will fail almost everyone. Alternative explanations can allow a "just right" version for more readers. This is obviously more work for editors, and just as obviously, the versions should be consistent with each other, so more work again. It is somewhat like translating, but in the same language. Many editors would probably consider this a waste of time. They don’t have to do it, we are volunteers. Others would consider it very important. Maybe they will do it. I think that linking articles with the same title between en: and simple: could be a relatively easy way of testing the utility of the concept. And I don’t mean the sidebar link that most readers do not know about (does it even exist on mobile?), I mean something obvious and self-explanatory in the title area. Cheers, Peter Southwood -----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Anders Wennersten Sent: 30 December 2018 14:50 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the death of Wikipedia imminent? Thats excellent. It is just then to live up to that guidline, and foster people who can simplity the lead sections For myself I remember how hard it was to get an educated physisct to write of the Coriolis effect in the lead section to make it understandable. He just squeemed that with simple language then it is no correct. And in it there is animations but without proper text it is impossible to understand Anders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_force is not easy to take in Den 2018-12-30 kl. 13:23, skrev David Gerard: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section > says pretty much the same: > >> The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's >> topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the >> topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any >> prominent controversies. The notability of the article's subject is usually >> established in the first few sentences. > that is, the intro section should be a short standalone article: > >> As a general rule of thumb, a lead section should contain no more than four >> well-composed paragraphs and be carefully sourced as appropriate. > For an extreme case, [[World War II]] gets *five* long paragraphs for > its intro section. > > > - d. > > > > On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 at 10:57, Anders Wennersten > <m...@anderswennersten.se> wrote: >> In my little duckpond (svwp) we have guidleines for the introduction >> part of the article. >> >> It should use (simple) language to enable 14-16 years old to understand >> it (while the rest can use more complicated vocabulary) >> >> It should hopefully only be 1-3 sentences, and to state what is all >> about and not a summary. >> >> We do not live up to this recommendation all the time, but I have >> noticed that he introducion part on enwp generally are very long, in >> comparison >> >> Anders >> >> >> >> Den 2018-12-30 kl. 11:39, skrev Zubin JAIN: >>>> I am 51, and I do not know much about the 18- generation, but I know two >>> important things about them. They have a very short attention span and >>> difficulties to concentrate. And they get a graphical and visualized >>> information much more easier than texts. For example, my son is capable of >>> watching three or four movies per day, but he has difficulties to read 20 >>> pages from a book. >>> >>>> Well, the first question is whether an encyclopedia is an appropriate / the >>> best format for them to get knowledge (as it is for us). I do not know the >>> answer. What I write below assumes that the answer is positive, otherwise >>> the rest of the text does not make sense. >>> >>>> The next question is what should be done. How Wikipedia should look like to >>> be accessible to this generation? The answer seems to be obvious. Articles >>> must be short and contain a lot of graphic information. May be they need to >>> be videoclips. Short clips. Or, at lest, they must contain clips, with more >>> voice and less letters. If one needs more detailed information or just >>> further information - one hops to the next article or watches the next clip. >>> >>> These are gross generalizations and the ideas are similarly flawed. >>> Anecdotes do not prove anything and while there is some evidence to suspect >>> that attention span is reducing ( Though there has yet to be consensus and >>> one should naturally be sceptical of any psychological finding given the >>> fields replication crisis). Under 18 people such as myself probably use the >>> site the most compared to any other demographic and most of us are capable >>> of using it as well as anybody else. >>> >>> The idea that Wikipedia needs to be dumbed down has abousltley no basis on >>> fact and data, is only supported by anecdotes and stereotypes. This is not >>> to say that simplifying some Wikipedia articles and creating more video >>> content is wrong, Wikipedia should be inclusive to all including those with >>> disabilities or conditions that make the traditional encyclopedia >>> unsuitable but making those changes out of ageist assumptions of >>> generational decline is insulting. >>> >>> On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 at 17:21, Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I still believe we need to "explode Wikipedia", by which I mean split >>>> curation templates, categories, lists and all other articles into more >>>> easily editable and curatable parts. This enables better linking to >>>> discrete Wikidata items while reducing the tedious task of curation for >>>> extremely long articles. Your comments, Peter, are still based on the >>>> 18-year-old idea of "it's the info that matters". It's no longer just the >>>> content that matters. Content curation, once advertised as being super >>>> simple (and still in the byline as "everybody can edit"), has become a >>>> tedious and complicated task, and efforts to make it easier have resulted >>>> with the visual editor for mobile, which still doesn't work for uploading >>>> to Commons. We need better upload interfaces for fixing spelling mistakes, >>>> adding blue links, categories, media, and all other common tasks. We should >>>> not let Google decide which sentences to index first, but we should be >>>> enabling those decisions to be made by human editors. Findability should >>>> reflect editability and it doesn't. >>>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 9:18 AM Peter Southwood < >>>> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Yaroslav, >>>>> Several recent developments relate to this situation which I think you >>>>> have described reasonably well. >>>>> Short descriptions help a bit. But they are too short to help much >>>>> Simple Wikipedia tries to keep things simple and easily understood, but >>>>> perhaps concentrates too much on a small vocabulary. >>>>> I do see a real need and a use for a "Readers Digest" or "executive >>>>> summary" version of long and complex articles for people who don’t have a >>>>> need for the full story, but as a complementary version, possibly linked >>>>> from the top of a desktop view, and possibly the primary target in >>>> mobile. >>>>> This would not be needed for all articles. >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Peter Southwood >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On >>>>> Behalf Of Yaroslav Blanter >>>>> Sent: 29 December 2018 23:34 >>>>> To: Wikimedia Mailing List >>>>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Is the death of Wikipedia imminent? >>>>> >>>>> I have written a long text today (posted in my FB) which the readers of >>>>> this mailing list might find interesting. I copy it below. I understand >>>>> that it is very easy to critisize me for side issues, but if you want to >>>>> comment/reply I would appreciate if you address the main issue. The >>>> target >>>>> audience I was thinking about was general (not necessarily >>>>> Wikimedia-oriented), and for the readers from this mailing list the first >>>>> several paragraphs can sound trivial (or even trivial and wrong). I >>>>> apologize in advance. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> Yaroslav >>>>> _________________ >>>>> I currently have a bit of time and can write on the future of Wikipedia. >>>>> Similarly to much of what I write it is probably going to be useless, but >>>>> someone may find it interesting. For simplicity, I will be explicitly >>>>> talking about the English Wikipedia (referring to it as Wikipedia). I am >>>>> active in other projects as well, and some of them have similar issues, >>>> but >>>>> there are typically many other things going on there which make the >>>> picture >>>>> more complicated. >>>>> >>>>> Let us first look at the current situation. Wikipedia exists since 2001, >>>>> and in a couple of weeks will turn 18. Currently, it has 5.77 million >>>>> articles. I often hear an opinion that all important articles have >>>> already >>>>> been created. This is incorrect, and I am often the first person to point >>>>> out that this is not correct. For example, today I created an article on >>>> an >>>>> urban locality in Russia with the population of 15 thousands. Many >>>> articles >>>>> are indeed too short, badly written, or suffer from other issues, and >>>> they >>>>> need to be improved. There are new topics which appear on a regular >>>> basis: >>>>> new music performers, new winners of sports competitions or prizes, and >>>> so >>>>> on. As any Web 2.0 project, Wikipedia requires a regular cleanup, since >>>>> there are many people happy to vandalize the 5th website in the world in >>>>> terms of the number of views. However, as a general guideline, it is not >>>> so >>>>> much incorrect to state that all important things in Wikipedia have been >>>>> already written. Indeed, if someone looks for information in Wikipedia - >>>>> or, more precisely, uses search engines and gets Wikipedia as the first >>>> hit >>>>> — they are likely to find what they need with more than 99% chance. >>>>> >>>>> In this sense, Wikipedia now is very different from Wikipedia in 2008 or >>>>> Wikipedia in 2004. Ten and especially fifteen years ago, everybody could >>>>> contribute something important. For example, the article on the 1951 film >>>>> "A Streetcar Named Desire", which won four Academy Awards, was started in >>>>> 2005, as well as an article on Cy Twombly, at the time probably the most >>>>> famous living artist. This is not possible anymore. This is why the >>>> number >>>>> of active editors is currently dropping - to contribute to the content >>>> in a >>>>> meaningful way, one now has to be an advanced amateur - to master some >>>>> field of knowledge much better than most others do. Or one can be a >>>>> professional - but there are very few professionals contributing to >>>>> Wikipedia in their fields, and there are very few articles written at a >>>>> professional level. Attempts to attract professionals have been made for >>>>> many years, and, despite certain local success, generally failed. They >>>> have >>>>> been going now for long enough to assume they will never succeed on a >>>> large >>>>> scale. Wikipedia is written by advance amateurs for amateurs. However, >>>>> despite the decline in the number of editors, there are enough resources >>>> to >>>>> maintain and to expand the project. It does not mean there are no >>>> problems >>>>> - there are in fact many problems. One of the most commonly discussed one >>>>> is systemic bias - there is way more information on Wikipedia on subjects >>>>> pertaining to North America than to Africa, and if a topic is viewed on >>>>> differently in different countries, one can be sure that the American >>>> view >>>>> dominates. But it is usually thought - and I agree with this - that these >>>>> drawbacks are not crucial, and Wikipedia is atill a useful and >>>> sustainable >>>>> project. Wikipedia clearly has its ecosystem, there are no competitors to >>>>> talk about, and all attempts to fork it were unsuccessful. There is a >>>>> steady development, and everybody is happy. >>>>> >>>>> Does this mean that everything is fine and we do not need to worry?, just >>>>> to wait until missing articles get written, or even to help this by >>>> writing >>>>> them ourselves? >>>>> >>>>> Absolutely not. To understand this, we can look again at the editor base. >>>>> There are detailed studies, but, for a starter, it is a nightmare to edit >>>>> Wikipedia from a cell phone. It is possible but not much easier to edit >>>> it >>>>> from a tablet. The mobile version is different from a desktop one, and it >>>>> is not really optimized for editing. This is a known problem, but one >>>>> aspect of it is clear. Most Wikipedia editors actually own a desktop and >>>> a >>>>> laptop. This brings them into 18+ category. There are of course >>>> exceptions, >>>>> but the fact is that the editor base gets older, and this is a problem. >>>> The >>>>> problem is not so much at this point that we all die and there will be >>>>> nobody to edit Wikipedia. The problem is that the next generation (18-) >>>> has >>>>> very different ways of getting information. And I guess they are not >>>>> interested in editing Wikipedia, and they will not get interested when >>>> they >>>>> grow up - possibly beyond introducing minor corrections, which can be >>>> done >>>>> from a phone. >>>>> >>>>> Traditionally, students were always among the core of the editors base. >>>>> They already have some knowledge and they still have time to edit. When >>>>> they graduate, find a job and start a family, they have way less time and >>>>> typically stop editing. The next group are retirees. Between students and >>>>> retirees, we have a tiny fraction of dedicated enthusiasts who are ready >>>> to >>>>> take time from work and family, but they are really not numerous. Well, >>>> and >>>>> very soon we are going to lose students as editors. And we should be >>>> happy >>>>> if we do not lose them as readers. >>>>> >>>>> I am 51, and I do not know much about the 18- generation, but I know two >>>>> important things about them. They have a very short attention span and >>>>> difficulties to concentrate. And they get a graphical and visualized >>>>> information much more easier than texts. For example, my son is capable >>>> of >>>>> watching three or four movies per day, but he has difficulties to read 20 >>>>> pages from a book. >>>>> >>>>> Well, the first question is whether an encyclopedia is an appropriate / >>>> the >>>>> best format for them to get knowledge (as it is for us). I do not know >>>> the >>>>> answer. What I write below assumes that the answer is positive, otherwise >>>>> the rest of the text does not make sense. >>>>> >>>>> The next question is what should be done. How Wikipedia should look like >>>> to >>>>> be accessible to this generation? The answer seems to be obvious. >>>> Articles >>>>> must be short and contain a lot of graphic information. May be they need >>>> to >>>>> be videoclips. Short clips. Or, at lest, they must contain clips, with >>>> more >>>>> voice and less letters. If one needs more detailed information or just >>>>> further information - one hops to the next article or watches the next >>>>> clip. >>>>> >>>>> This is a paradigm shift. Currently, the editors generally consider that >>>> it >>>>> is good to have long Wikipedia articles - because long means more >>>> complete. >>>>> Sometimes there are even proposals (fortunately isolated and without >>>>> followup) to delete all short articles even if they describe notable >>>> topics >>>>> and contain verified information. Clips are almost not in use. Of course >>>>> they still need to be made, but this is not such a big problem - there >>>> are >>>>> plenty of school students who have their own youtube channel, if they can >>>>> make clips, everybody can. >>>>> >>>>> The most difficult question is how this can be realized. I believe it is >>>>> not possible to just transform Wikipedia like this - make articles >>>> shorter >>>>> and simpler and spit them. First, this might be good for the young >>>>> generation, but this is still not good for the 18+ generation. Second, >>>> such >>>>> reforms should be either be approved by Wikipedia community through >>>>> consensus, or be imposed by the Wikimedia Foundation who owns the >>>> project. >>>>> The likelihood of either is zero. Just to give one argument, the >>>> community >>>>> is, well, the community of editors, of the same 18+ people with laptops >>>> who >>>>> have no difficulties reading long texts. >>>>> >>>>> I envision it differently. Ideally, we have the Wikipedia as it is now, >>>> but >>>>> on top of this, every article has a collection of shorter companion >>>>> articles, simple and a paragraph or two long, so that each of them can be >>>>> read in half a minute, They should not have excessive markup, references, >>>>> categories or anything else which can be found in the main article if >>>>> needed. References in Wikipedia are required not for the sake of having >>>>> references, but as a means to ensure that the information is verifiable - >>>>> and if the main article does it the companion articles do not need to. >>>> Some >>>>> of these companion articles can be in fact clips - there is a difficulty >>>>> that clips can not be edited collaboratively, but I am sure this one can >>>> be >>>>> solved. If anybody wants to solve it. >>>>> >>>>> The status of what I have written above is science fiction. I am sure if >>>> I >>>>> come with this proposal to a village pump of Wikipedia, it will be dead >>>>> within a day. In addition, it requires some modifications of MediaWiki >>>>> which can only be done by the Foundation. And I am not really looking >>>>> forward for the Foundation implementing this either. I have a lot of >>>>> respect for some of the Foundation employees, but it has now grown up >>>> into >>>>> a big corporation now and behaves as a big corporation, where some people >>>>> care less about the product and more about other things, and some look at >>>>> Wikipedia editors, aka "unorganized volunteers", as some annoying >>>>> phenomenon, which they can tolerate but are not willing to listen to. My >>>>> forecast is pretty pessimistic. Unless a miracle happens (and I >>>> currently, >>>>> at least not from my perspective, do not see any reasons for a miracle to >>>>> happen), soon or late will realize this, It might be a startup company, >>>> or >>>>> a non-commercial. And Wikipedia will stay as it is, and, after the >>>>> standards change many times, it will not be readable / accessible to most >>>>> of internet users, and will slowly die. And the results of what were were >>>>> doing for 20 years will disappear. This is a usual development and >>>> happens >>>>> to almost every human activity. We know that only a few percents of >>>> pieces >>>>> of Ancient Greek and Roman literature survived until now. >>>>> >>>>> Yaroslav Blanter, editor and administrator of the English Wikipedia, 125 >>>>> 000 edits. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. >>>>> https://www.avg.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
