The relevant facts to be checked were your assertion that I claimed that Wikipedia belongs to "us" Please do not misrepresent my words. I try to choose them with care. The selection of other "facts" you list below do not appear to make WMF any more an owner of Wikipedia than any of the actual contributors. However as I am not a lawyer I actually make no claims as to who, if anyone, has a legal claim to ownership of any of the Wikipedias. P
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Mister Thrapostibongles Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 8:44 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block Peter On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 6:45 AM Peter Southwood < peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote: > Check your facts. > P > Well, the Wikipedia trademark is owned by the Foundation, along with a variety of related marks, see https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_trademarks The servers on which the content of Wikipedia resides are rented and paid for by the Foundation, see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_servers The intellectual property in that content is very largely owned by the very disparate individuals who contributed, each of whom owns the IPR in their own individual contributons, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights These are the facts, -- do you wish to dispute them? Thrapostibongles > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > Behalf Of Mister Thrapostibongles > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 5:48 PM > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block > > Peter > > You say that Wikipedia belongs to "us". You are mistaken. In so far as it > belongs to anyone, it belongs to the Foundation. > > Thrapostibongles > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 3:35 PM Peter Southwood < > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote: > > > "We" are a subset of everyone. If Wikipedia belongs to everyone, it > > belongs to "us" as well. It seems that Fram who was one of us has just > > been excluded from our community by questionable process. I agree that > this > > should not happen, but suggest that it is sometimes necessary to exclude > > people from our community when they are shown in fair process to be > unable > > to cooperate in furthering the purposes of the project. Some of us try to > > make it reasonably easy and pleasant to join the community and help build > > the project, but it is not compulsory, either to make it pleasant, or to > > join. However credibility and respect beyond that which should be > afforded > > to anyone by virtue of being human are earned. > > Cheers, > > P > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of Robert Fernandez > > Sent: 12 June 2019 16:08 > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block > > > > > I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I looked you up, and > find > > that you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since 2015. > > > > This is part of the problem right here. This isn't our project and we > > shouldn't be trying to exclude people from our community. Wikipedia > > belongs to everyone. > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:53 AM Peter Southwood > > <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote: > > > > > > Thrapostibongles, > > > I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I looked you up, and > find > > that you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since 2015. > > > While it is possible that you have a long and distinguished edit > history > > under a previous name or as an IP editor, it leads me to wonder just how > > familiar you are with the customs and culture of enwiki, which I freely > > agree are non-optimal, but have evolved to sort of work in an environment > > which was predicted to be impossible. Yet here we are, dysfunctionally > > surviving when we are theoretically long extinct. Our dysfunctional mores > > function as they do and evolve through surviving and occasional > > modification by consensus of those who care enough to take part in the > > process, within the environment in which we work. We are somewhere > between > > an anarchy and a community, and we do not generally appreciate > > pontification from outsiders, which is what you appear to be, and to a > > large extent, what we consider WMF to be. It is a problem. If WMF chooses > > to rule by fiat it will have interesting consequences. So far they have > > mostly avoided that, and when they have it has not ended well. If you > > consider yourself an expert in something relevant I invite you to show > > evidence of your credentials. Otherwise we will take your comments as we > do > > those of any other unproven internet commentator. > > > This is just my personal take, I do not presume to represent anyone > > else. You are as free to ignore me as I am to ignore you, but engaging in > > this discussion has its consequences, and one of them is to be > questioned. > > > Cheers, > > > Peter Southwood > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of Mister Thrapostibongles > > > Sent: 12 June 2019 09:06 > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block > > > > > > Yaroslav, > > > > > > I think it's reasonably clear that the English Wikipedia community and > > its > > > community structures, such as its Arbitration Committee, and processes > > are > > > not capable of maintaining a productive, harassment-free environment > for > > > the volunteer workers. For example, they have consistently failed, > after > > > several attempts, to handle the case of a volunteer who used the word > > > "Cxxx" about a fellow worker, and the community has agreed that telling > > > others to "Fxxx off" is acceptable. These are symptoms of a > > dysfunctional > > > community, which tolerates behaviour that is unacceptable in any > > collegial > > > working environment, and it is right that the Foundation should step > in. > > > > > > Thrapostibongles > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 4:56 PM Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > The point made by pretty much everyone is not that Fram should or > > should > > > > not be banned, but that the process in this case should have followed > > the > > > > standard dispute resolution avenues, More specifically, the case > should > > > > have been communicated to the Arbitration Committee, whose members > did > > sign > > > > the non-disclosure agreement. > > > > > > > > This is different from the past cases when users were banned by WMF, > > since > > > > in this case it was made clear the case is based on on-wiki open > > activity > > > > of Fram (and, specifically, only on the English Wikipedia). The > on-wiki > > > > activity is subject to the community policies. > > > > > > > > To be clear, I am not a friend of Fram, and in the past supported > > desysop > > > > on a number of occasions. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Yaroslav > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 5:46 PM Amir Sarabadani <ladsgr...@gmail.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > People who oppose the ban: Are you aware of all aspects and things > > Fram > > > > has > > > > > done? Do you have the full picture? It's really saddening to see > how > > fast > > > > > people jump to conclusion in page mentioned in the email. I > > personally, > > > > > don't know what happened so I neither can support or oppose the > ban. > > As > > > > > simple as that. > > > > > > > > > > So what should be done IMO. If enwiki wants to know more, a > community > > > > body > > > > > can ask for more information, if body satisfy two things: > > > > > - They had signed NDA not to disclose the case > > > > > - They are trusted by the community > > > > > > > > > > I think the only body can sorta work with this is stewards but not > > sure > > > > > (Does ArbCom NDA'ed?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 3:58 PM Paulo Santos Perneta < > > > > > paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Lack of transparency from the WMF, whatelse is new. > > > > > > I'm currently under a funding ban secretly decided (by who?) > based > > on a > > > > > > false accusation, without providing any evidence. Until now I'm > > waiting > > > > > for > > > > > > an explanation from the WMF. So, this sort of attitude doesn't > > surprise > > > > > me > > > > > > at all. > > > > > > It is very unfortunate that the WMF apparently thrives in this > > kind of > > > > > > medieval obscurity, the opposite of the values of the Wikimedia > > > > Movement. > > > > > > Matter for Roles & Reponsibilities. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Paulo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benjamin Ikuta <benjaminik...@gmail.com> escreveu no dia terça, > > > > > 11/06/2019 > > > > > > à(s) 05:45: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad to see I'm not the only one dismayed by the > > unilateralism > > > > and > > > > > > > lack of transparency. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 10, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Techman224 < > > techman...@techman224.ca> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forwarding to WIkimedia-l since WikiEN-l is relatively dead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since this message, an Arbcom member (SilkTork) stated that > > they > > > > > > weren't > > > > > > > consulted, nor did this action was the result of Arbcom > > forwarding a > > > > > > > concern to the office. [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only non-response excuse from the WMF [2] was that "local > > > > > > > communities consistently struggle to uphold not just their own > > > > > autonomous > > > > > > > rules but the Terms of Use, too.” even though there were no > > > > complaints > > > > > > > on-wiki nor to Arbcom privately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The on-wiki discussion is taking place at the Bureaucrats and > > the > > > > > > Arbcom > > > > > > > noticeboards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office > > > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats'_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Request_for_ArbCom_to_comment_publicly_on_Fram's_ban > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=901300528 > > > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=901300528 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [2] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#Statement_from_the_WMF_Trust_&_Safety_Team > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Techman224 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Begin forwarded message: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> From: George Herbert <george.herb...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > >> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block > > > > > > > >> Date: June 10, 2019 at 8:54:34 PM CDT > > > > > > > >> To: English Wikipedia <wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org> > > > > > > > >> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> In case you're not following on-wiki - Office S&T blocked > > English > > > > > > > Wikipedia > > > > > > > >> user / administrator Fram for a year and desysopped, for > > > > unspecified > > > > > > > >> reasons in the Office purview. There was a brief statement > > here > > > > > from > > > > > > > >> Office regarding it which gave no details other than that > > normal > > > > > > policy > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > >> procedures for Office actions were followed, which under > > normal > > > > > > > >> circumstances preclude public comments. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Several people on Arbcom and board have commented they're > > making > > > > > > private > > > > > > > >> inquiries under normal reporting and communication channels, > > due > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >> oddity and essentially uniqueness of the action. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> There was an initial surge of dismay which has mellowed IMHO > > into > > > > > "Ok, > > > > > > > >> responsible people following up". > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I understand the sensitivity of some of the topics under > > Office > > > > > > actions, > > > > > > > >> having done OTRS and other various had-to-stay-private stuff > > > > myself > > > > > at > > > > > > > >> times in the past. A high profile investigation target is > > most > > > > > > unusual > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > >> not unheard of. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I did send email to Fram earlier today asking if they had > any > > > > public > > > > > > > >> comment, no reply as yet. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > > >> -george william herbert > > > > > > > >> george.herb...@gmail.com > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > >> WikiEN-l mailing list > > > > > > > >> wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > > > > > > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > > > New messages to: 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