I remind you all the https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/NonFreeWiki proposal of a
Non-Free Wiki. I supported that.
If we finally create it, maybe we can organize it since the beginning in a way
closer to how users active on Wikiprojects nowadays might like such repository
to work. With better language integration, cross-wiki metrics, efficient
structured metadata, automated categorization, transparent OTRS, a flag system
that allow users to start deletion procedure only when they have a standardized
and balanced degree of activity, and so on.
Once we show it works there, it would be much easier to import innovations on
Commons... I am already stressed at the idea of discussing these things on
Commons, but I would find interesting to set them up in a new system.
A.
Il martedì 19 maggio 2020, 03:20:37 CEST, George Herbert
<george.herb...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
We have two or three competing reasons to have commons like repositories:
1. Truly fully open content repository for Wikimedia projects and the world as
a whole. (Commons now)
2. Truly fully open content repository in general of things which are worthy
but not used in projects/articles now. (Some of Commons)
3. Commonly available repository for sufficiently free (fair use, other
existing allowed cases like irreplaceable or so forth) use in at least one
project so that other projects could also share the media efficiently if local
content rules allow it. (Nowhere now, I’ve described as “uncommons” somewhat
for its humor value as a name)
I have previously pointed out that ideally we’d have a way to unify those for
easy other projects reference, but there were wailing and gnashing of teeth
from developers and I list energy.
I also have pointed out that the “helpful” process of copying a non-fully-free
image to Commons, local deletion due to overlap, then commons deletion removing
*all* copies is pathological inter-project process behavior and we really
needed to end that somehow. Also ran into much wailing and gnashing of teeth
from commons people not entirely wanting to be blamed and others out of
patience trying to deal with commons people, and everyone loses interest.
Perhaps we would do better off to create an uncommons and change all the
for-wider-use upload tools to deposit it there, point the internal image auto
linking there, and have commons out on the side as not the direct Wiki project
source but a specific curated open content source. Everything in commons would
be in uncommons and linked for articles etc, new fair use or irreplaceable
content goes to uncommons only, and curators with open license intellectual
property expertise could curate upselection of the approved bits to commons.
That should make everyone happy and be practical and implementable without
horrible massive architecture changes.
-george
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 18, 2020, at 5:04 PM, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> it all comes back to "Who is our audience" and "How do we need/want to
> engage with them"
>
> If you start on the mainpage, follow the about link, then follow to scope
> there is no clear just a vague anyone...
>
> I think we need to be honest in the assessment of our true audience, thats
> basically the WMF projects therefore our purpose is "to make freely
> licensed media accessible across all movement projects"
>
> Like the movement strategy process we need to dissect what we are trying to
> achieve and how we can get there, and then come up with a solution to
> address what we already have so its all consistent. At the moment we are
> developing differing concepts, tools, policies in isolation .
>
>> On Mon, 18 May 2020 at 23:34, Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <
>> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, structured data are far from perfect. I am sorry about it because I
>> know their potential but they need to grow on a difficult soil and this
>> slows down. We expected that, unfortunately. You can't just use them
>> top-down, they need a bottom-up approach but we lack the right mentality of
>> engaged users to make it grow.
>>
>> If you want to change and improve something right now with metadata, try
>> galleries before categories. They are quite useless at the moment, I see
>> some users are updating them but they are really poor. It was very frequent
>> to finf low resolution files still there, they are not standardized as
>> well. Since they have limited structural role, working on that should be
>> easier.
>>
>> Il lunedì 18 maggio 2020, 17:20:31 CEST, Phil Nash via Wikimedia-l <
>> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> ha scritto:
>>
>> The search has to be done before the category structure is addressed,
>> even if that needs to be done. How else would you compartmentalise, what 32
>> million images?
>> And structured data has to be fixed before either. The reason is that
>> structured data does not have unique names, and I don't think people relate
>> to the Q numbers as well as names of things they know already. It's
>> actually very much worse than that because these automated "Depicts"
>> suggestions do not appear to know about Commons categories such that they
>> suggest an obvious statement.
>>
>> We all know it's maybe broken, but I don't see this as a fix, even if we
>> run two systems in parallel until the structured data is (a) mature (b)
>> sensible and (c) throughly reliable.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> New Outlook Express and Windows Live Mail replacement - get it here:
>> https://www.oeclassic.com/
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com>
>> Reply-To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Sent: 18/05/2020 15:53:35
>> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Commons
>>
>> ________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>> I think we could start to make the category structure obsolete and focus
>> on structured data, there's already bots running basic structured data that
>> could be ramped up. and Having Wikidata game(
>> https://tools.wmflabs.org/wikidata-game/) thats instead focused on whats
>> in
>> a file & its description, that would capture more structured data including
>> licensing. It'd help teach people more about including structured data
>> 62million files is a lot to process so it'll take time but we can run
>> competitions like 1lib1ref, encourage affiliates to focus on doing Commons
>> structured data game as outreach events, this will teach people about
>> licensing, and about what makes a good photograph because everyone knows a
>> 30px by 30px photo is crap we can have structured data items less than
>> 100,200,500px on the long edge.
>>
>> Next step would be to look at the search function, add in an advance option
>> with a few optional fields to fill in that searches the structured data.
>> The advance search option could then sort by pixel size giving the biggest
>> images first.
>>
>>> On Mon, 18 May 2020 at 22:28, Samuel Klein <meta...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Commons needs iterative workflows that tag problems and modify what
>> reuses
>>> / transfusions are supported, rather than making everything a crude
>>> delete/keep decision. Else it will always struggle w scaling to these
>>> uses.
>>>
>>> 🌍🌏🌎🌑
>>>
>>> On Mon., May 18, 2020, 9:48 a.m. Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l, <
>>> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> in the past "99% unproblematic" was true, because most of the things
>>> were
>>>> obvious and standard (panorama of towns, ancient portraits), it's not
>>>> nowadays.
>>>> You can upload tons of unproblematic pictures because they are easy to
>>>> find, but you don't need them really. So they mostly clutter the
>>> workflow.
>>>> There are a lot of images of kittens that we can upload, good luck
>>>> categorizing them. Of course, you can switch to very specific projects
>>> like
>>>> "documenting all small rivers" but the core issue are also high-quality
>>>> upload. And everything is potentially problematic there: the right of
>> an
>>>> important person to privacy, the right of the manufacturer of an
>>>> instruments, how creative is the lighting of an object? if I upload an
>>>> image of a town it's probably a very nice one, taken by a competent
>>>> photographer who clearly show them on line as well. You are in a
>>> dimension
>>>> where you need to study, learn, ask around, find a balance. Instead we
>>> have
>>>> people acting randomly and superficially, because they do not care
>> about
>>>> the long-term effect of their actions.
>>>>
>>>> This impacts the maintenance of course, because very specific issues
>>>> requires sophisticated categories, processes and metadata. The effort
>>> there
>>>> is quite high, you are always the first one to arrive. the first one to
>>>> clean up,the first one to explain to a third party. If you add on that
>>> more
>>>> unnecessary stress than required, people reduce this job as much as
>> they
>>>> can as a necessary balance. But that job has an important effect in the
>>>> overall maintenance, so at a certain point you start to see the effect
>>> when
>>>> it is not there.
>>>>
>>>> It's not a big surprise, we tried to explain this fact for years, but
>> the
>>>> community is designed to ignore these aspects and encourage other work
>>>> attitudes. It's just like that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Il lunedì 18 maggio 2020, 15:28:51 CEST, Yaroslav Blanter <
>>>> ymb...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>>>>
>>>> To be fair, in most cases to use Commons for uploading files is
>> totally
>>>> unproblematic as soon as one has basic understanding of copyright. I am
>>>> pretty sure 99% of my uploads can not be deleted (I had my files
>>>> mass-nominated for deletion, once with the claim they are not mine, and
>>>> once with the claim they are holiday photos and out of scope, but both
>>>> cases admins were reasonably enough to speedy close the nominations).
>> Of
>>>> course there are always potentially problematic cases, for example I
>> can
>>>> imagine for one could start requiring "publication" dates for painting,
>>>> which is copyright paranoia but some people take it seriously etc. But
>> if
>>>> one uploads something sufficiently far from the grey area it normally
>>>> should be ok.
>>>>
>>>> (I am still a Commons admin, but I reduced my admin activity to a
>> minimum
>>>> and I am not planning to increase the activity level).
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>> Yaroslav
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 3:12 PM Ziko van Dijk <zvand...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello Alessandro,
>>>> Thank you for your post and its insight. I recognized the same with
>> me: I
>>>> only make use of Wikimedia Commons in lessons if I have enough time.
>>> Also I
>>>> would introduce it only to students with a solid knowledge of English.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>> schrieb am Mo. 18. Mai 2020 um 13:08:
>>>>
>>>>> In the end, it's more like inducing order from other projects than
>>> caring
>>>>> about the order on Commons because there clearly can't be with people
>>>>> acting the way they do.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a great observation! And this phenomenon contributes to the
>>>> on-going chaos, to the work-around-culture you need to adapt to if you
>>> want
>>>> to make use of Wikimedia Commons. :-(
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards
>>>> Ziko
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They are also not caring for it: if you spend your time starting
>>>>> unnecessary deletion procedures instead of cleaning up categories or
>>>>> description, you obviously have your priority, so we also have ours.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> About the main page, we need to focus more on media files IMHO, and
>> of
>>>>> course search is complicated but I am sure metadata can improve it.
>>>>>
>>>>> A.
>>>>> Il lunedì 18 maggio 2020, 11:33:46 CEST, Robert Myers <
>>>>> robert.my...@wikimedia.org.au> ha scritto:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well some people do, but it is when they get trolled by other
>>>> contributors
>>>>> and/or overzealous Admin comes along and deletes the file. They
>> quickly
>>>>> lose interest, in turn telling other people not to bother.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just had another lot of photographs tagged by a troll, in which an
>>>> Admin
>>>>> deletes (
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=File:Rachel_Priest_after_the_Sydney_Thunder_vs_Adelaide_Strikers_WBBL_game_at_Robertson_Oval.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=File:Abandoned_farm_house_in_Hillgrove_01.jpg
>>>>> ).
>>>>> These have been on Commons for two + years, using the same camera
>> gear
>>> I
>>>>> have used over the years. If it is enough for me to give up on the
>>>> project,
>>>>> it would be the same for any other user but for a newbie it is
>>> something
>>>>> that would make me run for the hills (depart quickly as possible)!
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
>>> benjaminik...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anecdotally, it seems people sometimes don't upload their photos to
>>>>>> Commons because they don't realize that the scope of Commons is
>> much
>>>>>> broader than that of Wikipedia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Has there been, or should there be, any research into this, or why
>>>> people
>>>>>> don't contribute more broadly?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~Benjamin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert Myers
>>>>> Secretary - Wikimedia Australia
>>>>> M: +61 400 670 288
>>>>> robert.my...@wikimedia.org.au
>>>>> http://www.wikimedia.org.au
>>>>>
>>>>> Wikimedia Australia Inc. is an independent charitable organisation
>>> which
>>>>> supports the efforts of the Wikimedia Foundation in Australia. We
>>> welcome
>>>>> your support by membership or donations to keep the Wikimedia mission
>>>>> alive.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> --
>> GN.
>>
>> *Power of Diverse Collaboration*
>> *Sharing knowledge brings people together*
>> Wikimania Bangkok 2021
>> August
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>
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