Way 3 is only banned if staff decide external links are too dangerous. J
Sent from Gmail Mobile On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 01:54 Charles Roberson <clandonrober...@gmail.com> wrote: > James, > > Way 1-3 was effectively banned by WMF today. Way 4 is still viable, but > expecting the staff to start it up for you is a pipe dream. > > - Charles > > On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 4:01 PM James Heilman <jmh...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I have laid out 4 strategies for including OWID in mediawiki here >> >> https://mdwiki.org/wiki/WikiProjectMed:OWID >> >> We can of course do the third one immediately. Ie simply link in the >> caption to the interactive graphs hosted by OWID itself. >> >> James >> >> On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 9:15 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < >> galder...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>> It doesn't matter what we think. It doesn't even matter if we >>> collectively decide that we want to go on that direction. The WMF's Annual >>> Plan and every single answer points that they don't mind. >>> >>> We were doing it wrong one year ago. Now is even worse. Catastrophic, >>> but not serious. >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* James Heilman <jmh...@gmail.com> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 6, 2024 9:09 PM >>> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are >>> doing it wrong >>> >>> Yah, not sure what Bergsma (WMF) >>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Mark_Bergsma_(WMF)> is trying to >>> say... No one is dismissing security or privacy. One; however, does need to >>> balance risk versus benefit and of course mitigate security and >>> privacy issues along the way. Allowing fear of security or privacy risks to >>> paralyse us is also not ideal. >>> >>> Kimmo for sure we could internalize everything ie run their software on >>> production servers, we already host their data on Commons (that was a >>> many year effort). Made the request 8 or so years ago to host their >>> software in fact, but the WMF dissolved the team / individual working on >>> this effort. I still think that is a reasonable way forwards. >>> >>> James >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 8:03 PM Kimmo Virtanen < >>> kimmo.virta...@wikimedia.fi> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Just as a practical question in terms of what has been already done. As >>> it seems that all proposals where extension will require external >>> connections outside of Wikimedia production sites are no-go the feasible >>> next step would be to modify the OurWorldInData extension so that it would >>> load the graph data from Wikimedia commons. Is this already done even for a >>> limited number of example graphs? If not then this could be the next step >>> and then ask for a new security review on this approach. >>> >>> Though, even after it is solved that extension doesn't need external >>> connections outside wikimedia production it still would require some level >>> code review that OWID grapher doesn't do anything unexpected. >>> >>> Data itself in least some extend is in Commons >>> - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Our_World_in_Data_datasets >>> >>> The OurWorldInData grapher >>> - >>> https://github.com/owid/owid-grapher/tree/master/packages/%40ourworldindata/grapher >>> >>> Application Security Review Request : OurWorldInData >>> - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T324989 >>> >>> Br, >>> -- Kimmo Virtanen, Zache >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 6:46 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < >>> galder...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Has this discussion impacted somehow on the WMF's approach to the future. >>> >>> Well, today we had the answer: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:OWID_Gadget#c-Mark_Bergsma_(WMF)-20240606152100-Sj-20240428061700 >>> >>> (TL;DR: no) >>> >>> Galder >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Daniel Mui <danboy12...@gmail.com> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 9:40 PM >>> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are >>> doing it wrong >>> >>> I would agree that no mention in the OKR would be quite disturbing... >>> However the 2024 report is NOT out yet, these are draft issues and I would >>> not make judgement until the full report is ready, which i believe to be >>> april. >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> Dear All, >>> >>> I understand the frustration around the lack of progress on interactive >>> content and the discontinuation of the Graph extension. However, I'd like >>> to point out a few things. >>> >>> First, the response from staff members reaching out to editors for their >>> opinions was remarkably quick. This type of response is not common, and >>> Wikipedia is unique in its hands-on approach to issues like this, it is >>> something to be proud of and also something that takes time. >>> >>> Second, the Graph tool is being overhauled rather than patched. This is >>> a significant undertaking that will bring all our tools into the modern >>> age, making them more accessible and removing the underlying >>> vulnerabilities that led to the current situation in the first place, >>> it will also ensure the tool is up-to-date in terms of UX through things >>> like codex and other modern improvements that long term will allow more >>> users to create graphs which hopefully will keep it a priority to maintain, >>> again thinking long term here. >>> >>> I know that this is taking time, but I believe that developing a robust >>> and sustainable solution is the best approach. Doing it this way rather >>> than delaying it for another six months is something I'd rather have >>> and I'd like to thank the hard working wikimedia team for that. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Daniel >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 8:03 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < >>> galder...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Dear all, >>> Soon it will be a year since the Graph extension is disabled in all >>> wikis. Meanwhile, we have been discussing about interactive content here >>> and there, and there have been some promises about changes in the platform >>> so these changes are possible in the future. >>> >>> Today the draft of the Key Results for the 2024-2025 annual plan was >>> published and there's no single mention to this, nor to improving the >>> multimedia experience. The disconnection between the needs and the plans is >>> so evident, that I don't really know why we even bother discussing. You can >>> see the Key Results here: >>> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2024-2025/Product_%26_Technology_OKRs >>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2024-2025/Product_%26_Technology_OKRs> >>> . >>> >>> This is extremely disappointing. >>> >>> Best, >>> Galder >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Samuel Klein <meta...@gmail.com> >>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 23, 2024 3:37 PM >>> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are >>> doing it wrong >>> >>> Beautiful. Thank you Felipe!! >>> >>> 🌍🌏🌎🌑 >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 23, 2024, 5:54 AM Felipe Schenone <scheno...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Galder, I just did this fix >>> <https://eu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition&diff=prev&oldid=9637458> >>> and >>> your Vivarium seems to be working now. The documentation was ok, but a bit >>> confusing, so I improved it too. Soon I'll send a patch to make those >>> "special categories" unnecessary. In the meantime, they're a necessary >>> annoyance, I'm afraid. Cheers! >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 5:37 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < >>> galder...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Felipe, that's a really great move. I looked to these examples a >>> couple o years ago, and this seems that a good option to add some >>> interactive content. Anyway, I have tried to replicate it and can't make it >>> work (https://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Txantiloi:Vivarium). Is the >>> documentation right? >>> >>> Best >>> >>> Galder >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Felipe Schenone <scheno...@gmail.com> >>> *Sent:* Friday, March 22, 2024 10:39 PM >>> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are >>> doing it wrong >>> >>> Hi everyone, good news! >>> >>> Thanks to this humble change >>> <https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/c/mediawiki/extensions/Gadgets/+/1005092> >>> (deployed >>> today) it is now possible to load a specific gadget when a specific >>> template is used in a page. This opens the door (or perhaps a window?) to >>> interactive content using JavaScript. See for example this article in >>> the Spanish Wikipedia <https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juego_de_la_vida> for >>> an interactive instance of Conway's Game of Life, and scroll down for more >>> instances! >>> >>> I started documenting the system at MediaWiki.org, under the title template >>> gadgets <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Template_gadgets>, and included >>> many working examples. Check it out! >>> >>> Perhaps the system isn't as friendly or powerful a solution as some >>> might hope. But it's very real, and it only depends on us now. Next week, >>> when the documentation and examples are a bit more cooked, I'll propose >>> adding a few "template gadgets" to the English Wikipedia, since my >>> experience has taught me that when something hits the English Wikipedia, it >>> quickly spreads elsewhere. I'll link to the proposal when I do, in case you >>> want to participate. >>> >>> There's so much more that could be said about this, but I'd rather keep >>> it short. If you have questions or ideas, feel free to write them here or >>> at the relevant talk page >>> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Template_gadgets>. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Felipe (User:Sophivorus) >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 5:31 AM danboy12342 Mui <danboy12...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> I agree that Wikipedia needs to spend a few quarters spending time on >>> our main product. The website is very impressively still the top result of >>> a huge number of searches and in this new AI age; despite the >>> controversy around it, wikipedia is the top source for many LLMs. >>> Therefore while it doesn't need to be the only focus or even *the* focus >>> most >>> of the time it does need to be kept working but not just kept as is, it >>> needs to be innovative and continue to meet the growing demands of a >>> "modern" and "useable" site that allow users to get the information they >>> need as fast and effectively as possible, these days that means >>> interactivity. >>> >>> I feel I'm repeating others but a quick burst of very serious investment >>> into the site and its many sister pages needs to happen sooner rather than >>> later. >>> Finally I'd like to thank Marshall again for his remarkable comments. >>> It's good to see that this issue is clearly a priority that foundation >>> staff are already looking at. >>> >>> - Daniel. >>> >>> --------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, 09:17 Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hi >>> >>> I just like to highlight one point, that raises concerns; >>> >>> >>> perhaps enabling other platforms/apps to use our content to make >>> interactive or video materials there. >>> >>> >>> While this sounds like an easy solution we run into a number of hidden >>> costs. These are significant when we push for reusers to present what we >>> are doing in better ways we lose the movement's revenue stream as less >>> people see our donation banners. With less direct traffic we also >>> sacrifice the ability to convert readers into contributors which has always >>> been our primary source of community sustainability and growth. I know >>> other providers will find different ways to present our efforts in part or >>> in whole that is part of our purpose, to do our mission and achieve our >>> goals we need prioritise internal solutions. >>> >>> This also leads us to a related issue that our mission is to make the >>> sum of all knowledge freely available. When we look to outside parties to >>> share our efforts we lose our ability to ensure that the information is >>> neutral, and that it's freely accessible. Butch is right in noting that >>> when we put funding into third party sites it is taking resources away from >>> the movement, yet those same funds were donated to us on the basis of >>> maintaining and building our infrastructure. It would be a wise investment >>> to enable some of those much needed interactive and video content here >>> through purchasing rights. >>> >>> On Wed, 7 Feb 2024 at 12:20, Butch Bustria <bustr...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Everyone, >>> >>> My earnest hope that the Wikimedia Foundation on its 2024-2025 Annual >>> Financial Plan prioritize and I mean put first among all is the technical >>> infrastructure among all its budgetary items. We can scale down budgets to >>> 3rd party organizations like the Knowledge Equity Fund, Movement Strategy >>> Governance funding, campaign grants, and other "wants" to accomodate a >>> highly technically reliable and stable Wikimedia online projects ("needs"), >>> future proof, and user friendly experience which require investments on >>> quality manpower, hardware, applications and the like. We love open source >>> but we also be pragmatic and wise on selection of choices because we want >>> our content be conveniently available and reliable to our readers, users, >>> consumers and also editors. >>> >>> A welcome development is the MediaWiki Users and Developers Conference, >>> the successor to EMWCon. >>> >>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_Users_and_Developers_Conference_2024 >>> >>> The said conference will be held in Portland, Oregon, from April 17–19, >>> 2024. >>> >>> I also hope the Foundation invest in more technical gatherings, both >>> onsite, hybrid or online to engage and reach out to more technical >>> contributors, within and beyond the Wikimedia movement. I also hope WMF to >>> start exploring eastward to Asia or elsewhere in the world as well fully >>> diversify the technical community. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> *Butch Bustria* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, 4:54 AM Brion Vibber <bvib...@wikimedia.org> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for weighing in, Marshall! >>> >>> I agree wholeheartedly that we need to do a proper architecture for a >>> sandbox for interactive media, that will be safe (first and foremost), >>> perform well in the browser, work across device types (desktop web, mobile >>> web, mobile apps), and maintain our key requirements on editability and >>> reusability, balanced against the security and privacy needs of users if >>> we're going to invest the effort. >>> >>> Backing up to do it right rather than patch up Graphs “one more time” is >>> the right thing, and I’m very happy to see a confluence of interest around >>> this now! >>> >>> My hope is we can figure out how to make that architecture & testing >>> work happen in the near term until we collectively (inside WMF and out) can >>> wrangle resources to make the implementation production-ready. >>> >>> Once we have a common infrastructure to build on, it’ll be easier for >>> work to progress on individual types of media (graphs, charts, maps, >>> animations, editable simulations, coding examples, etc, as well as classics >>> like panorama viewers and integrating the audio/video player into a sandbox >>> for heightened security). >>> >>> My biggest hope is that we’ll enable more work from outside WMF to >>> happen – letting volunteers and other orgs who might have their own >>> specialty areas and work funding to progress without every change being a >>> potential new security risk. >>> >>> When we have succeeded in the past, we have succeeded by making tools >>> that other people can use as their own basis to build their own works. I’m >>> confident we can get there on interactive media with some common focus. >>> >>> Let's all try to capture some of this momentum while we've got it and >>> set ourselves up for success down the road. >>> >>> – b >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 6, 2024, 12:27 PM <mmil...@wikimedia.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi everyone – My name is Marshall Miller, I am a Senior Director of >>> Product at the Wikimedia Foundation, and I work with many of the teams that >>> are involved with the user experience of our websites and apps, such as the >>> Editing, Web, Growth, and Mobile Apps teams (among others) [1]. I’m part of >>> the leadership group that makes decisions about how the WMF teams approach >>> things like graphs, interactive content, and video. Thank you all for >>> having this in-depth and important discussion. >>> >>> I know that issues with graphs [2] are what started this discussion, but >>> I agree that it makes sense to think about this in terms of the broader >>> category of “interactive content”, because other kinds of interactive >>> content, such as maps or timelines, would share architecture with what is >>> needed for graphs (video is a different and more complicated content >>> type). I wrote a lot in this email, but here are a couple of the main >>> points up front: to support graphs and other interactive content, we would >>> need to take a step back and make a substantial investment in sustainable >>> architecture to do it – so that it works well, safely, and is built to >>> last. And because that’s a substantial investment, we need to weigh it >>> against other important investments in order to decide whether and when to >>> do it. >>> >>> I know that it is very frustrating that the Graph extension has not been >>> operational for many months – it means readers haven’t been seeing graphs >>> in articles, and editors haven’t been able to use graphs to do things like >>> monitor backlogs in WikiProjects. Over the months of trying to find a way >>> to turn graphs back on, it has become clear that there isn’t a safe >>> shortcut here and that the path forward will require a substantial >>> investment – one that we have not yet started given the other priorities >>> we’ve been working on. Every year we have to make difficult tradeoffs >>> around what areas of our technical infrastructure we can and cannot take >>> on. In the current fiscal year, the Product and Technology department has >>> made experienced editors a priority [3], and many things that volunteers >>> have asked for are either accomplished or in flight: >>> >>> Improvements to PageTriage (complete) [4] >>> Watchlist in the iOS app (complete) [5] >>> Patrolling in the Android app (in progress) [6] >>> Dark mode (in progress) [7] >>> Improvements to the Commons Upload Wizard (in progress) [8] >>> …and other projects. >>> >>> But I know this conversation isn’t as much about what editors need as >>> what current and future readers need. Between talking about interactive >>> content and talking about video, it sounds like we’re having the larger >>> conversation of what we should be offering today’s and tomorrow’s readers >>> to help them learn from encyclopedic content – whether we need to be >>> offering interactivity, or video, or perhaps enabling other platforms/apps >>> to use our content to make interactive or video materials there. This is a >>> really important conversation, because even working together we probably >>> will not be able to build all of it – we’ll have to make hard choices about >>> where to invest. One place where this broader conversation is happening is >>> called “Future Audiences”, which does experiments on how to reach newer >>> generations who use the internet differently than previous generations – >>> and thinking particularly about video. Future Audiences has regular calls >>> with community members to shape the direction of those experiments, which >>> in turn inform how the broader Foundation prioritizes. I hope many of you >>> will get involved in those conversations – you can sign up here. [9] >>> >>> Focusing back on graphs, since that’s what kicked this thread off, the >>> several approaches we’ve attempted for quickly re-enabling the extension >>> have ended up having security or performance problems. Therefore, we think >>> that if we were to support graphs and other interactive content, we would >>> need to plan substantial investment in sustainable architecture. This way, >>> our approach would work securely and stably for the longer term. But that >>> would take significant resources, and we’ll need to weigh it against many >>> other important priorities, like tools for functionaries, improvements to >>> the editing experience, automated ways to stop vandals, etc. >>> >>> To be clear, if we do assign resources to the planning and building of >>> an architecture for graphs (and other interactive content), it means that >>> we are still at least several more months away from having a working >>> Foundation-supported architecture. Therefore, I think we should also be >>> having the additional conversation that many others have brought up about >>> what volunteers can do in these intervening months to make graphs somewhat >>> available to users. I know people are talking about that concretely on the >>> Phabricator task, and I will join that conversation as well. >>> For the bigger question, I would like to start with some more learning >>> about which kinds of interactive content are important for our >>> encyclopedia, and how our community members see the evolution of the >>> reading experience on our projects. I’d like to have some small >>> conversations with many of you so that we can get into the details and >>> ideas, joined by some of my colleagues. I’ll start reaching out to see who >>> is interested in talking – and please let me know directly if you’d like to >>> talk. >>> >>> Thank you for weighing in so far, and let’s keep talking and planning >>> together. >>> >>> Marshall >>> >>> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:MMiller_(WMF) >>> [2] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T334940 >>> [3] >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024#Our_approach_for_the_future >>> [4] >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Page_Curation/2023_Moderator_Tools_project#October_20,_2023:_Final_update >>> ! >>> [5] >>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Watchlist#October_2023 >>> [6] >>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/Android/Anti_Vandalism >>> [7] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Accessibility_for_reading >>> [8] >>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:WMF_support_for_Commons/Upload_Wizard_Improvements >>> [9] >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Future_Audiences#Sign_up_to_participate! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> Public archives at >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/CPYNFK3PDTP6YVLZU3SLOJOXYJMOQHM5/ >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> Public archives at >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OZC7KCXVZAUWPCNNALLEIV26DIRNKPX7/ >>> To unsubscribe send an email to 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