Right on, Pradeep! Hence my detailed views on my own responsibility as WikiProject India lead.
Warm regards, Ashwin Baindur ------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:43 PM, Pradeep Mohandas <pradeep.mohan...@gmail.com > wrote: > hi, > > I also think a similar demarcation is needed in chapter and community > functions. Chapter leadership should also not be imposed on the > community. I am not saying this is happening, just that such > demarcation will help. > > I hope the Chapter discusses this overlap as well. > > Pradeep > Handheld > > On 07/03/2012, Ashwin Baindur <ashwin.bain...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Tinu, respectfully, your argument for inability to segregate roles does > not > > hold water. > > > > In the mean, cold harsh world of legalese, things like demarcation of > > roles, disclosures, incompatibility of holding conflicting appointments, > > having code of ethics are all normal and these instruments in fact are > > found inadequate and there is now clamour for more oversight not less. > > > > We have to have a code of ethics for the WMF employee - they must remain > > true to their salt to the organisation which pays them. While it is nice > > that good people like Shiju are always as helpful as they were as > community > > volunteers, the simple fact is that there has been a change of role. We > see > > them as paid employees which is a fact. We do not mean that as a > derogatory > > term but that is what they chose to be - paid. So volunteer activities > must > > only be done in a way that does not conflict with their employer. There > is > > a great obligation for them to do this. They cannot and should not act as > > community because it means the setting up of COI with their employer. > They > > owe it to their employer. They cannot hunt with the hare and run with the > > hounds all at once. > > > > The chapter has volunteer teams - like communication etc. I'm sure it is > > okay and desirable for Noopur, Shiju etc to be part of them and assuming > > good faith, I'm sure they are not intending any wrong thing. But COI can > > easily arise if one is not painstakingly correct and careful. For that > > reason, I suggest that the WMF employees on any team be demarcated as > > WMF-IP representatives - so that there is a clear-cut understanding of > who > > is a volunteer and who is not and those who are not volunteers are > expected > > to be suitably circumspect in their participation when policy is sought > to > > formed by discussion in the community - that is the price they have to > pay > > for choosing a paid job from WMF. > > > > The way I see it, some people say Chapter is independent from WMF but > that > > can only happen if their funding is independent. Whoever pays the piper > > chooses the tune. WMF is gracious not to interfere much with Chapter, I > > assume they are not interfering at all, but that is because of their > > goodness or choice. Should WMF become dictatorial, Chapter has to kowtow > or > > face the consequences. So like it or not, chapter/WMF are related > > organisations which are in the same field with objectives of their own. > COI > > will arise, you cant prevent it, only resolve it in good ways by having > > good policy, good communication and sensible interaction. > > > > We have enough "turbulence" in the system already. Questions like cost > > effectiveness of WMF driven activities as compared to that of volunteer > led > > activities are taken as personal attacks by one side and as righteous > > crusades by the other. IEP 2 will soon be open us - heaven forbid! The > > Global South program is just gaining momentum and the amount of > attention, > > money, effort being put into India programs is going to increase not > > reduce. The coming about of the Trust is going to complicate issues - I > > cant even think how to handle that time-bomb! At the same time, the > demand > > is growing; more editors are volunteering. Each Wikipedia is inflating, > > some explosively, others with bits and spurts,some are sill-born. > > > > In such a backdrop, more prudence and probity are the need of the hour. > > More transparency, not more laissez faire. More care, not more "chalta > hai". > > > > We have to make it our business to be above board in whatever we do. Imho > > COI is by far the easiest to solve - there are greater challenges out > there > > for us to tackle - things which really matter, like the hundreds of > > thousands of school children waiting for Offline Wikipedia for Indian > > Schools! > > > > Warm regards, > > > > Ashwin Baindur > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham > > <tinucher...@gmail.com>wrote: > > > >> And to add > >> > >> "That is why they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on > their > >> user pages, demarcating this very difference". > >> > >> This is only possible in virtual worlds, while editing Wikipedia or > >> writing mails. Not in real life work ! > >> > >> I cannot have one face or voice when I am acting as board member of the > >> chapter and another when I am helping the community. Many of us, live > and > >> breathe Wikimedia, making it difficult to separate on which capacity > each > >> of our action is. > >> > >> You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia > >> Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the > volunteer > >> work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and > paid > >> staff of Foundation cease to have any value ? > >> > >> -TC > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham < > tinucher...@gmail.com > >> > wrote: > >> > >>> If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of > the > >>> Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and > >>> Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a > >>> parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter. > >>> > >>> IMHO, It would be only a conflict of interest if I am both a paid > >>> employee of the chapter and also a board member of the chapter as well. > >>> > >>> The bigger problem is we have lots of work to do, very very little > hands > >>> and too many arm chair advisers. Period. > >>> > >>> -TC > >>> > >>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Theo10011 <de10...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:37 PM, CherianTinu Abraham < > >>>> tinucher...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Everyone is encouraged to volunteer for the chapter , regardless of > >>>>> what his or her day job is. There is nothing that prevents even a > >>>>> foundation staff or contractor even being the board member of the > >>>>> chapter , > >>>>> less alone any volunteer or member. There are several Wikimedia > >>>>> chapters > >>>>> in the world who has paid and full time staff working for them. The > >>>>> Secretary ( volunteer) of the Dutch chapter is also a Foundation Full > >>>>> time > >>>>> Contractor. > >>>>> > >>>>> Hope that clarifies > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I'm not sure what you are talking about above. > >>>> > >>>> The issue with Siebrand is a conflict of interest, as far as I know, > >>>> they should/would have declared it to their members. Laws in several > >>>> countries dictate that board of non-profit can not be paid employees > of > >>>> their own or parent organizations. Several chapter board members > usually > >>>> resign to take up employee position. It used to be that they had to > >>>> resign > >>>> to take up any position as staff, but contractor is a relatively new > >>>> feature with confusing legality, but there are still individuals who > see > >>>> the distinction and resign or declare their conflicts upfront. Board > >>>> members by definition can not be paid employees, this is not my > >>>> distinction > >>>> but a legal one. Something I believe all WIkimedia organizations > should > >>>> adhere to. > >>>> > >>>> I believe Ashwin explained it much better than I could. If we can > >>>> demarcate what role someone does something as, it would help a lot. > The > >>>> community staff at WMF usually keep 2 accounts to demarcate this > >>>> clearly, > >>>> on wiki. > >>>> > >>>> It might not be "practically separate whether we does something as a > >>>> volunteer...." the distinction is actually quite simple. One that > en.wp, > >>>> staff and majority of the community holds- paid vs. non-paid. What one > >>>> does > >>>> as an employee is separate from what one does as an employee. That is > >>>> why > >>>> they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their user > pages, > >>>> demarcating this very difference. > >>>> > >>>> Regards > >>>> Theo > >>>> > >>>> P.S. @achal lol > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > >>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > >> > >> > > > > > -- > Pradeep Mohandas > How Pradeep uses email - http://goo.gl/6v1I9 > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >
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