On Jan 21, 2008 2:44 PM, Kuba Ober <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Saturday 19 January 2008, Tomas Kuliavas wrote: > > Sorry to other list readers about offtopic rant, but I can't stand when > > people attack software that I like. > > I don't think what I said amounts to an attack. I've reported what works for > me, and one of the problems I had with squirrelmail. > > > >> Zimbra is commercial groupware suite. SquirrelMail is free webmail > > >> application. You are suggesting to replace whole user's email system > > >> with some proprietary locked product. > > > > > > It works pretty well, is free as in beer, and the only "closed" parts are > > > its > > > Java core. A lot of other stuff, such as the JavaScript framework, and > > > reused OSS project, are still open-source. > > > > Main Zimbra's product is not Open Source Edition. Zimbra sells its > > products on annual/monthly subscription per seat basis. > > > > Outlook, iSync, Blackberry, mobile connectors. Clustering. Backups. These > > are not open. > > > > Do Zimbra admins know how their email setup works or just click on > > provided buttons? Can they change setup from default values without > > breaking it completely? Do admins have option to revert their changes, if > > something breaks? What happens if you deviate from standard OpenSource > > Edition setup and see cryptic Java errors in your logs or Zimbra web > > pages. > > Considering that Zimbra builds on a big bunch of OSS technologies, I can't > really imagine it'd be any different if say squirrelmail provided similar > functionality. I don't think that squirrelmail admins usually know much more > about "how it works" than Zimbra admins do. In fact, with squirrel I may well > posit they know next to nothing about squirrelmail, but they do know much > about their underlying deployment which interfaces via imap. All of this > knowledge can translate to Zimbra, which happily uses postfix, clamav, mysql > etc. > > > > I have been using it for a year and I really beats everything else out > > > the hands down. IMHO of course. > > > > I've been using SquirrelMail for more than 6 years. > > > > You are comparing apples to oranges. Zimbra is not email client. It has > > email client as part of whole server package. Zimbra's webmail client uses > > AJAX, has better integration with email system (it is designed for Zimbra) > > and it can't be compared with SquirrelMail. > > Well, in the end it's about what users need. I understand the technical and > free software argument, but few people will demand email and nothing else > these days. Certainly business users need way more than that, so for better > adoption in an institutional setting, squirrel would have to include features > beyond email. > > > Zimbra can't replace SquirrelMail, because it also replaces IMAP, SMTP and > > POP services and other parts of email setup. Zimbra adds features that are > > not needed for standard email client. > > I've been testing a Zimbra deployment that uses CentOS-provided functionality > for everything that Zimbra normally carried around, and it works. Not out of > the box, but it definitely does. > > The deal is that unless the "extra" features are integrated into the client, > they may as well not exist. Calendars and address lists have been part of > standard client functionality everywhere else for years now (no, I don't use > Outlook) - considering them "not needed in a standard email client" is simply > wishing that water flew uphill. If the users want those, one can't tell > them "suck it up". > > > > Having run squirrel for a 5+ years, and some of the most annoying bugs > > > remaining unfixed (say support for national characters that actually > > > works in real life) > > > > Prove your claims. When these issues are related to broken MIME produced > > by other software? > > Nope. For me, Squirrel can not parse its own emails with Latin-2 characters in > them. Neither can anything else parse them. It's been like that for years, > across multiple redeployments, starting at least with RH9. Unless RedHat had > kept something seriously messed up in their distro over many years, I think > it's Squirrel's problem. > > > I am former SquirrelMail i18n developer and I suspect that you are > > spreading FUD about SquirrelMail. SquirrelMail has issues, but you and > > others are free to fix them. If Zimbra has issues, you will have to wait > > until Yahoo fixes it. > > I can only report on what works and what doesn't. I have limited time that I > can allocate to fixing bugs in software that I'm not working on myself. >
Please take this discussion OFF LIST. This has nothing to do with wine development. -- James Hawkins