Here is another thought on PPSK per user. If the key is (unknowingly) compromised, then somebody else can masquerade as the user. This is especially a concern if you allocate or manage Internet bandwidth per user.
If EAP-PEAP-MSCHAPv2 or EAP-TLS are used, the user login credentials need to be compromised or the device stolen. Bruce Osborne Wireless Engineer IT Network Operations - Wireless (434) 592-4229 LIBERTY UNIVERSITY Training Champions for Christ since 1971 -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey D. Sessler [mailto:j...@scrippscollege.edu] Sent: Monday, November 7, 2016 12:54 PM Subject: Re: TLS Onboarding Vendors The idea of using PPSK is that for a given user (student), all their devices would be together and the on-boarding would be the same be it a laptop or Wii. Right now, devices that support WPA2-Ent are in one SSID (and use Cloudpath for onboarding), and the others are connected to a PSK SSID. I’ve also looked back at years of helpdesk data, and I’m hard pressed to find situations where we’ve had to disable a user’s account because of a misbehaving device. We’ve certainly used device exclusion on the controller for enforcing DMCA violations (no compliance), but I’m not had to do that in years. Again, there are interesting pluses to TLS, but how often do they come into play, and is the extra work justified. I don’t know the answer, thus why I’m asking all of these questions. Jeff On 11/7/16, 5:07 AM, "The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv on behalf of Osborne, Bruce W (Network Operations)" <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU on behalf of bosbo...@liberty.edu> wrote: If you are going to use one key per user, you might as well use PEAP MSCHAPv2. Either way you cut off all user access due to one of their devices misbehaving. With TLS you can disable access at a device level. Bruce Osborne Wireless Engineer IT Network Operations - Wireless (434) 592-4229 LIBERTY UNIVERSITY Training Champions for Christ since 1971 -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey D. Sessler [mailto:j...@scrippscollege.edu] Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 7:57 PM Subject: Re: TLS Onboarding Vendors Curtis, Curtis, I'm just asking questions and thinking out loud. Of course there will be infrastructure, but in my mind, a student logging into our student portal to get their personal key _once_, which they then use on all of their devices, is intrinsically less overhead (and less time spent) then TLS even if an experienced IT person only needs 1:08 on an iOS device. Unlike PPSK, TLS requires the on-boarding of every device. I'm not knocking TLS, but in practice it still sounds like more work then what a user is subjected to at home. The closer I get the experience to home (which PPSK seems to try and do), the happier I think the users will be. IT will be considered a partner rather than an adversary. And by users I mean Students. It's very likely that a college may choose to treat college-owned assets differently. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Curtis K. Larsen Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 1:51 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] TLS Onboarding Vendors Hi Jeff, I'm wondering what product you have found that facilitates PPSK to group levels with no administrative overhead and no infrastructure requirements. I mean assuming you don't want every user in the organization to be using the same key and every device in the same VLAN - there has to be active directory integration, RADIUS infrastructure, policies defined, and at at least a webserver for facilitating this onboarding process. The management overhead between the two choices seems nearly identical. I mean we're talking about spinning up a couple of VM's configuring a few policies and updating certs every few years in both cases. Ryan, Why does this process take 5 min? You should have stuck with Cloudpath (haha). I just timed it and it takes me 1:08 with iOS - our most popular device. I know we're all sensitive to BYOD, but don't forget the managed devices - in our testing EAP-TLS with GPO is easier than both PEAP and PPSK because the user literally does nothing but login to the machine. Will you push out PSK's to the managed devices? I think both solutions have their place - it's in applying either too broadly that you shoot yourself in the foot. -Curtis ________________________________________ From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> on behalf of Jeffrey D. Sessler <j...@scrippscollege.edu> Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 11:15 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] TLS Onboarding Vendors Based on your data, this is what I ran in my head. 58,000 devices on TLS - Say 5 minutes each to provision based on your comments. WAP2-Ent TLS: 5 minutes x 58000 clients = 4833 hours spent by the community connecting to WiFi. 4833 hours each and every year given the expiration on the cert. Open WiFi: 10 seconds to pick SSID x 58000 clients = 161 hours. No additional hours in subsequent years other than new clients. PSK/PPSK WiFi: 30 seconds to pick SSID and enter passphrase x 58000 clients = 483 hours. No additional hours in subsequent years other than when adding a new client. For all of them: How many IT admin hours are spent managing it? How many IT user support hours responding to questions/problems? Yearly cost for infrastructure to support each? What are the risks associated with each? In the case of TLS, does the loss of over 4000 hours per year on just the user side justify its use over the alternatives? Is it that much better? Does IT save 4000 hours in other areas? That's why I asked about PPSK as an alternative. When one scales up to tens of thousands of devices, five minutes starts to matter. Jeff On 11/4/16, 6:18 AM, "The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv on behalf of Turner, Ryan H" <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU on behalf of rhtur...@email.unc.edu> wrote: We do, too. I really wasn't even thinking of those types of devices in the initial response because our belief has been for any device that doesn't support TLS to just use PSK. Yesterday we had 58,000 devices on eduroam (using TLS) and 9000 on our PSK network. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Osborne, Bruce W (Network Operations) Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 7:51 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] TLS Onboarding Vendors Those devices do not support 802.1X. That is why we currently have a separate SSID for those devices. PPSK *may* be a more secure solution for those devices that do not support TLS much like WPA2-Personal (PSK) is currently a solution for devices that do not support WPA2-Enterprise (802.1X). Bruce Osborne Wireless Engineer IT Network Operations - Wireless (434) 592-4229 LIBERTY UNIVERSITY Training Champions for Christ since 1971 -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey D. Sessler [mailto:j...@scrippscollege.edu] Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2016 4:45 PM Subject: Re: TLS Onboarding Vendors Really? So Wii U, Playstation 3 &4, Amazon Fire TV, and Xbox 360/One now support TLS? Jeff On 11/3/16, 11:52 AM, "The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv on behalf of Turner, Ryan H" <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU on behalf of rhtur...@email.unc.edu> wrote: Right now the only things that don't play well with TLS are Windows phones and blackberries. If they run Linux, it is also not great (although we have instructions on how to do this and many people configure manually without issue). Ryan -----Original Message----- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2016 11:15 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] TLS Onboarding Vendors Ryan, No doubt we're seeing better support, my question about PPSK was just that... a question. I'm looking at options going forward to solve the ongoing divide between the devices that do and do not support these advanced methods. For students (which is my focus), the advantages/disadvantages between the options don't matter when their devices have to be dealt with differently. On face value, PPSK appears to solve the problem for the user, removing barriers at the college that don't exist at their home. While I agree that TLS configuration isn't difficult, it's still far harder than just entering a PPSK, and not everything supports TLS. We've been wishing for better support from device makers for a decade, and each year we take a few steps forward, and then a few backward. Our vendor is rumored to be adding enterprise-scalable PPSK support early next year, so I was really curious to know if others had this option, would it influence the deployment of TLS. Right or wrong, it's influenced mine, so I wasn't sure if I was an outlier or were others of the same mindset. Jeff On 11/2/16, 3:49 PM, "The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv on behalf of Turner, Ryan H" <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU on behalf of rhtur...@email.unc.edu> wrote: Jeff, I think that actually advanced EAP methods have turned the corner. Manufacturers are making onboarding easier. I think you are under the impression that configuring a device for certificates is a big process. It takes most people less than 5 minutes, and they do this once a year. Just in our area, UNC and NC State, representing over 60,000 students are TLS. Duke is moving that way. I haven't spoken to anyone recently even remotely considering PPSK. I've heard plenty starting to explore TLS. Ryan Turner Manager of Network Operations, ITS The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill +1 919 274 7926 Mobile +1 919 445 0113 Office > On Nov 1, 2016, at 6:31 PM, Jeffrey D. Sessler <j...@scrippscollege.edu> wrote: > > I think the distinction between enterprise and residential blurred with the advent of SaaS and the cloud. No longer did an employee need to be "at the office" to enter their hours worked in the time and attendance system, or as an administrator, you no longer had to run the accounting application from your office computer. It's difficult for me to name anything we're doing here now that isn't some form of web-based SaaS model, where the expectation is that an employee (baring overtime rules) can access these systems from any location. If an employee can access these systems from Starbucks for the 16 hours a day they aren't at work, what's the point of WPA2-ent for the other 8? > > I'm of the mindset that WAP2-Enterprise may in fact be an endangered species. I think most will come to accept that something like PPSK is "good enough". Users don't want significant barriers to getting access to what they need, and once those barriers reach a certain level, the user will absolutely find alternatives i.e. I've visited many colleges where it was easier to use my MiFi hotspot then to be forced thru a cumbersome on-boarding system where there are restrictions be it on services available or data rates. > > Taken to the extreme. At the point you no longer have a local data center and everything is SaaS, can an argument for WPA2-ent still be made? > > Jeff > > On 11/1/16, 3:03 PM, "The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv on behalf of Curtis K. Larsen" <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU on behalf of curtis.k.lar...@utah.edu> wrote: > > Well, I think users in general expect that when they connect to the "Secure" wireless network - it is both encrypted, and they are not being impersonated. If not, maybe you could allow them to opt-out after accepting the risk. Often these are the same credentials that staff use to login and set the direct deposit for their paycheck, credentials faculty use to post grades, and students use to add/drop classes. The business could also opt-out if they are willing to accept the risk. But as the Enterprise Wireless Engineer you should at least make everyone aware that with PPSK there are still risks. Also, I just think one of these standards was intended to be mostly for residential purposes and the other for mostly enterprise purposes. When you look at federated authentication as in eduroam or hotspot 2.0, etc. WPA2-Ent. just seems to fit better long-term. In short, I think the difficult/expensive parts of PKI/EAP-TLS have recently become a lot easier and I think they'll continue to do so. > > -Curtis > > ________________________________________ > From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> on behalf of Chuck Enfield <chu...@psu.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 2:54 PM > To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU > Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] TLS Onboarding Vendors > > "If we can agree that most applications today (including ones that involve > FERPA or PII) are web-based (let's toss in cloud too), and a user can access > them from any location including at home on a PSK protected SSID (or > cellular connection, or open network at Starbucks), does forcing WPA2-Ent at > the campus actually result in reduced risk? Is there cost justification for > the infrastructure (staff, hardware, software) necessary to implement > EAP-TLS (or alternatives)?" > > Where's the like button? FWIW, I still like enterprise encryption and > authentication for keeping people off of my network. I's nevertheless > useful to remind ourselves of precisely what the value is, and it's not > protecting the data. > > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv > [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2016 4:41 PM > To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU > Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] TLS Onboarding Vendors > > Curtis, > > If we can agree that most applications today (including ones that involve > FERPA or PII) are web-based (let's toss in cloud too), and a user can access > them from any location including at home on a PSK protected SSID (or > cellular connection, or open network at Starbucks), does forcing WPA2-Ent at > the campus actually result in reduced risk? Is there cost justification for > the infrastructure (staff, hardware, software) necessary to implement > EAP-TLS (or alternatives)? > > Our Admissions process starts with getting Common App (filled out by > student/parents at home on a website and includes a lot of sensitive info), > that data feeds into Slate (another cloud-based Admissions package), then > feeds into financial-aid and the SiS (again web-based for the users). The > bulk of the PII/FERPA items have then been collected outside of the college > envirnoment, from connections that may have Starbucks level of protection. I'm > trying to see the justification of WPA2-Ent, but it's a hard sell - sure, I > know there can be advantages, but are they necessary and/or justified? Is > PPSK good enough for everyone. Is it good enough for students and their > devices? > > Jeff > > On 11/1/16, 8:56 AM, "The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group > Listserv on behalf of Curtis K. Larsen" <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU > on behalf of curtis.k.lar...@utah.edu> wrote: > > I personally would *not* prefer PPSK for devices that are WPA2-Ent. > (EAP-TLS) capable. PPSK has a nice niche in the IoT device category for > devices that do not support WPA2-Ent. (EAP-TLS) in my opinion, and we'll be > anxious to use it there when our vendor delivers ...but the same > vulnerabilities around a regular WPA2-PSK are still there (de-auths, brute > forcing). So, for IoT in student housing (game consoles, and roku devices > that only do PSK) maybe PPSK is the appropriate new level of security > because sensitive data is unlikely, but for the most common devices (Phone, > Laptop, Tablet, etc.) where users are more likely to access and transmit > FERPA, PHI, etc. WPA2-Enterprise with EAP-TLS seems more appropriate. From > what I can tell it is probably easier to implement EAP-TLS than PPSK amongst > the fully-managed portion of that device class anyway (thinking GPO here). > In my ideal world I would have 3 SSID's One Guest SSID unencrypted, One > PPSK SSID that accommodates all of the non-dot1x capable devices that are > not guest users, and one dot1x WPA2-Ent (EAP-TLS) SSID for traditional > Student/Faculty/Staff devices (Phone, Laptop, Tablet). Then someday in the > future Hotspot 2.0/802.11u would convert many of the un-encrypted guests > over to encrypted without any captive portal interaction. > > > -- > Curtis K. Larsen > Senior Network Engineer > University of Utah IT/CIS > > ________________________________________ > From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv > <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> on behalf of Coehoorn, Joel > <jcoeho...@york.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 8:33 AM > To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU > Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] TLS Onboarding Vendors > >> If those using or considering TLS had the option of PPSK (personal > pre-shared key), would you opt for PPSK instead? > > Definitely. I think it's a much more user-friendly option, while > providing similar control and security as TLS. > > > > > [https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.york.edu%2FPortals%2F0%2FImages%2FLogo%2FYorkCollegeLogoSmall.jpg&data=01%7C01%7Crhturner%40EMAIL.UNC.EDU%7C8ba9f4f887a04f7e52e108d402a6da68%7C58b3d54f16c942d3af081fcabd095666%7C1&sdata=j5gtTSxQnAijXNtvjGfjq2af%2FlXacwcY0P2oTcl%2BXqc%3D&reserved=0] > > > Joel Coehoorn > Director of Information Technology > 402.363.5603 > jcoeho...@york.edu<mailto:jcoeho...@york.edu> > > > > > The mission of York College is to transform lives through > Christ-centered education and to equip students for lifelong service to God, > family, and society > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Jeffrey D. Sessler > <j...@scrippscollege.edu<mailto:j...@scrippscollege.edu>> wrote: > Just curious. If those using or considering TLS had the option of PPSK > (personal pre-shared key), would you opt for PPSK instead? > > Jeff > > On 10/31/16, 9:27 AM, "The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group > Listserv on behalf of Bruce Boardman" > <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> > on behalf of board...@syr.edu<mailto:board...@syr.edu>> wrote: > > We are using Cloud Path for onboarding, but we are considering other > options if and when we go to EAP TLS. We may get it baked in if we use ISE > or Clear Pass but I considering other standalone options as well. Anybody > have experience or thoughts they'd like to share. Thanks > > Bruce Boardman Networking Syracuse University 315 > 412-4156<tel:315%20412-4156> Skype board...@syr.edu<mailto:board...@syr.edu> > > ********** > Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE > Constituent Group discussion list can be found at > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.educause.edu%2Fgroups%2F&data=01%7C01%7Crhturner%40EMAIL.UNC.EDU%7C8ba9f4f887a04f7e52e108d402a6da68%7C58b3d54f16c942d3af081fcabd095666%7C1&sdata=5Rk6AtHTqrH0NnCBI%2B5Q9Jn%2BE1X9BM9R9PrvnhrRT4k%3D&reserved=0. > > > > ********** > Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent > Group discussion list can be found at https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.educause.edu%2Fgroups%2F&data=01%7C01%7Crhturner%40EMAIL.UNC.EDU%7C8ba9f4f887a04f7e52e108d402a6da68%7C58b3d54f16c942d3af081fcabd095666%7C1&sdata=5Rk6AtHTqrH0NnCBI%2B5Q9Jn%2BE1X9BM9R9PrvnhrRT4k%3D&reserved=0. > > > ********** Participation and 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