Thanks for the links Mike. I’ve seen some of these before, but not all of them. They’re definitely worth checking out.
From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> On Behalf Of Mike Atkins Sent: Friday, October 9, 2020 4:33 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Client roaming While this is not an Apple specific thread, Dan Jones’ presentation at Wireless Technology Forum on “Designing Wireless Networks for Apple” was very entertaining/helpful in explaining the Apple roaming docs he referenced. Several pointed out documented vs observed behaviors are not always the same. Pertinent to this thread, the need for MacOS to see an AP at 12 dB better than the existing connection before 5GHz roaming could be a factor. Probably not the issue at hand, but some things to consider in the docs. You should watch the presentation at WTF20.COM<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwtf20.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ccae104%40PSU.EDU%7Cdd27c38f3145433fb37e08d86c927800%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C1%7C637378723632694428&sdata=6u%2FTsXmg1oRw3NsdNy8fB57Lwyb%2BkpbWoHK%2FAI%2BnoI0%3D&reserved=0> or when it is posted to the CWNP YouTube channel<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fuser%2FCWNPTV&data=02%7C01%7Ccae104%40PSU.EDU%7Cdd27c38f3145433fb37e08d86c927800%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C637378723632694428&sdata=jfY1g%2BK1mquYG0tMuupgFDfWeDNepQY%2FPHpIGDRqaEI%3D&reserved=0>. Here are the references from @UKDanJones presentation: https://apple.co/3l4xqvs<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.apple.com%2Fen-gb%2FHT202068&data=02%7C01%7Ccae104%40PSU.EDU%7Cdd27c38f3145433fb37e08d86c927800%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C637378723632704424&sdata=DZ4rUpPv3H%2Fg70R9ybU0MdV%2BPcY%2F5lqFJgFRT%2FNUPXc%3D&reserved=0> - Apple Recommended AP Settings https://apple.co/3ngM5FR<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.apple.com%2Fen-gb%2Fguide%2Fdeployment-reference-ios%2Fiora86498d88%2F1%2Fweb%2F1&data=02%7C01%7Ccae104%40PSU.EDU%7Cdd27c38f3145433fb37e08d86c927800%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C637378723632714419&sdata=87EOOJYliE59fUbzSNaDasX3cZVfqbIa9AF%2B%2F69Cq6Q%3D&reserved=0> - Creating Network Names For Your Wi-Fi Networks https://apple.co/3jmbLhF<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsupport.apple.com%2Fen-us%2FHT203068&data=02%7C01%7Ccae104%40PSU.EDU%7Cdd27c38f3145433fb37e08d86c927800%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C637378723632714419&sdata=HMIno9nDWIsq4xeGOgmP7aobNZWZb8wNlOEH1svd3a4%3D&reserved=0> - About Wireless Roaming For Enterprise https://apple.co/2SdQA5F<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fapple.co%2F2SdQA5F&data=02%7C01%7Ccae104%40PSU.EDU%7Cdd27c38f3145433fb37e08d86c927800%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C1%7C637378723632724417&sdata=3%2FUPDft75ada4LGyi%2FFAnKLbWNmI2GzTWjaGnIXpsU8%3D&reserved=0> - macOS Wireless Roaming For Enterprise Customers https://apple.co/2HFn8TU<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.apple.com%2Fen-us%2FHT202628&data=02%7C01%7Ccae104%40PSU.EDU%7Cdd27c38f3145433fb37e08d86c927800%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C637378723632734410&sdata=Cca4mhyIKBml1nii5ztqkGr4ghAi6LYuXFSminPnRhI%3D&reserved=0> - Wi-Fi network roaming with 802.11k, 802.11r, and 802.11v on iOS https://bit.ly/3iLFG2K<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cisco.com%2Fc%2Fdam%2Fen%2Fus%2Ftd%2Fdocs%2Fwireless%2Fcontroller%2Ftechnotes%2F8-6%2FEnterprise_Best_Practices_for_iOS_devices_and_Mac_computers_on_Cisco_Wireless_LAN.pdf&data=02%7C01%7Ccae104%40PSU.EDU%7Cdd27c38f3145433fb37e08d86c927800%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C1%7C637378723632734410&sdata=XJr7d2hYjs%2FBF0tn7k%2FnTyUUl5Jc9I5yR%2BLtrX%2BSX%2Fg%3D&reserved=0> - Enterprise Best Practices for iOS devices and Mac computers on Cisco Wireless LAN https://apple.co/36msKwC<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fapple.co%2F36msKwC&data=02%7C01%7Ccae104%40PSU.EDU%7Cdd27c38f3145433fb37e08d86c927800%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C1%7C637378723632744406&sdata=bKj5rdpOkSI5Ix1HuSbUJ6aubVtXElGJ6sKcM8V8fss%3D&reserved=0> - Use private Wi-Fi addresses in iOS 14, iPadOS 14, and watchOS 7 https://apple.co/2GjOYVr<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fapple.co%2F2GjOYVr&data=02%7C01%7Ccae104%40PSU.EDU%7Cdd27c38f3145433fb37e08d86c927800%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C637378723632744406&sdata=ifrQ1SzzHEa3hxDgDL5CB59wCaSVv%2FSvs3ugSQcVIP0%3D&reserved=0> - Connecting Apple devices to 802.1X networks https://apple.co/3cLBa1Z<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fapple.co%2F3cLBa1Z&data=02%7C01%7Ccae104%40PSU.EDU%7Cdd27c38f3145433fb37e08d86c927800%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C637378723632754401&sdata=lmn0aXdJN7VNmxDIJmvabOJzsre9iP1weSdwq5Q7AOU%3D&reserved=0> - Build Trust Through Better Privacy https://bit.ly/2SgyQXb<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2SgyQXb&data=02%7C01%7Ccae104%40PSU.EDU%7Cdd27c38f3145433fb37e08d86c927800%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C1%7C637378723632764398&sdata=MajZqPXiOwsSSxdMWXzgNlF4SZ0NyWStZkcEEzGeJ%2Fo%3D&reserved=0> - You Should Care About DHCP Option 51 https://apple.co/3jnEDWR<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fapple.co%2F3jnEDWR&data=02%7C01%7Ccae104%40PSU.EDU%7Cdd27c38f3145433fb37e08d86c927800%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C1%7C637378723632764398&sdata=MkMhssneMNyFd2EUDV10yFEE29LSUIS32Jx7%2B19LT%2Bk%3D&reserved=0> - How To Modernize Your Captive Network Maybe it is just us, but we have lots of places where a 12dB delta is hard to achieve when designing for dual 5G radio coverage at -65 dB. Clients end up skipping an AP (or two) before actually roaming. Not to mention use case and behavior differences between laptops and mobile devices like phones and tablets. You might notice on a laptop Zoom session, maybe not with an iPhone VoWi-Fi session. Our focus was on VoWi-Fi, thinking it was the more challenging thing to tackle. Remote learning is challenging those assumptions. Mike Atkins Network Engineer Office of Information Technology University of Notre Dame From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> On Behalf Of Jake Snyder Sent: Friday, October 9, 2020 3:33 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Client roaming On thing to keep in mind is that iOS devices start behavior poorly when they have no good option above -65. That’s the threshold they prefer 5GHz and when you combine that with “hallway design” and “band select” you are asking for a bad time. Scenario: Client doesn’t see 5GHz above -65. 2.4Ghz looks better, client tries to associate and bandselect tries to send them back. Client doesn’t think 5GHz meets its requirements, tries to associate on 2.4Ghz. Round and round they go. If you need band select for devices like iOS that prefer 5GHz, you likely don’t have enough 5GHz coverage, and trying to force them to 5GHz only results in issues. A better approach is to have at least 6db of transmit power more on 5GHz than 2.4. This makes 5GHz generally look more attractive so clients naturally pick it, band select not needed. You can easily do this with TPC min/max settings. Also keep in mind when looking at your survey reports. -65 is as measured by the device, not your fancy sidekick or aircheck. Figure you need an extra 7-10db delta to overcome the limitations of some mobiles devices. That puts you -58 to -55 as measured. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 9, 2020, at 1:08 PM, James Helzerman <jarh...@umich.edu<mailto:jarh...@umich.edu>> wrote: Best thing you can do for clients is have a 5GHz only SSID. We moved over the summer to this with our main 802.1x network and it has fixed a ton of these roaming issues and complaints of performance. Basically take the decision making out of the hands of the client, give them only one band to choose from. Band Select / steering may work but can lead to a lot of users issues as roaming can break if the client doesnt take the hint to use 5GHz. Transitions with real time applications like voice can be negatively affected. For those on our campus that have 2.4GHz only devices, we offer eduroam in both bands and have them use that then use AAA override to place them in the same network as our branded ssid giving them all the same access to resources. Our branded 802.1x, MWireless, has 95% of our user devices. -Jimmy -- James Helzerman Wireless Network Engineer University of Michigan - ITS On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 12:03 PM Enfield, Chuck <cae...@psu.edu<mailto:cae...@psu.edu>> wrote: FWIW, I’ve been reluctant to assume this is a new problem. Usage patterns have changed in the dorms and people are spending much more time using real-time protocols than ever before. Those protocols make brief connectivity issues very noticeable. It’s quite possible we’ve always had these problems, but they rarely bothered users enough to make them open trouble tickets. From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> On Behalf Of Michael Davis Sent: Friday, October 09, 2020 10:49 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Client roaming We're an Aruba shop and only seeing it on iOS and MacOS devices. On 10/9/20 10:44 AM, Mallon, Jason wrote: I have not been able to pinpoint a device type as of yet. It seems to be happening across all platforms including game systems. Thanks, Jason Mallon | Network Engineer III <image001.jpg> OIT The University of Alabama <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ua.edu%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ccae104%40PSU.EDU%7Cdd27c38f3145433fb37e08d86c927800%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C637378723632774394&sdata=3MTNnAv2paKaAzrVBd2WKoWMwKhXtIh9%2BErpmN3gQzk%3D&reserved=0>jemal...@ua.edu<mailto:jemal...@ua.edu> <image001.jpg> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU><mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> Date: Friday, October 9, 2020 at 9:40 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU><mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Client roaming We’re an Aruba shop and have noticed similar behavior. We’re having more incidents of intermittent connectivity issues this year than in previous years, and most of those clients are making questionable roaming decisions. It’s been really prevalent with iOS and MacOS. Much less on Windows and Android. There’s always been problems with picking a good radio when those devices first connect, but, historically, once they were steered to a good 5GHz radio they stayed there. They’re not staying there this year. We haven’t figured out why. Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless and Cellular Penn State IT 814.863.8715 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU><mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> On Behalf Of Mallon, Jason Sent: Friday, October 09, 2020 10:30 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Client roaming Wondering if anybody else is seeing this. We currently have devices doing a lot of roaming between 5 and 2.4 radios, especially in the dorms. I would not think anything of it normally, but they are moving from a -52 to -58 on the 5 radio to a -75 or worse on the 2.4 radio. This doesn’t seem to matter what SSID they are connected to. Band select is enabled on all SSIDs. We are running Cisco 8540 WLCs on 8.10.130. Most of the complaints are coming from the dorms, so I am not sure if it is happening on our other controllers with an older code level. 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