PPPoE on a SOHO Router, private IPs for the devices.
But I don't think you have to use PPPoE to do the /32 address to force the end-device to route everything. Need a router guru to answer that.
Scott Reed
Owner
NewWays
Wireless Networking
Network Design, Installation and Administration
www.nwwnet.net
The season is Christmas, not X-mas, not the holiday, but Christmas, because
Christ was born to provide salvation to all who will
believe!
---------- Original Message
-----------
From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 11:17:15 -0800
Subject: Re: [WISPA] How toAuthenticate/Protect(WasEthernetbasedauthentication)
> I don't use pppoe.
>
> it really isn't workable, since the client end
I
use does not have a PPPOE client.
>
> And, I don't need it. BTW, if you
use
pppoe, how does someone use thier xbox, packet8 phone, or other generic
IP-addressable
device?
>
>
> North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
> personal
correspondence
to: mark at neofast dot net
> sales inquiries to: purchasing
at
neofast dot net
> Fast Internet, NO
WIRES!
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
Scott Reed
> To: WISPA General List
> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 11:04
AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] How
toAuthenticate/Protect(WasEthernetbasedauthentication)
>
> Or, as PPPoE, client gets a /32 and a default
gateway that allows everything to route.
>
> Why would the
customer with a
public need to be on a subnet by themselves, thus needing 4 IPs?
>
> Scott
Reed
> Owner
> NewWays
> Wireless Networking
>
Network Design,
Installation and Administration
> www.nwwnet.net
>
> The season is Christmas,
not X-mas,
not the holiday, but Christmas, because
> Christ was born to provide
salvation to all who will believe!
>
> ---------- Original
Message
-----------
> From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To:
"WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
> Sent: Wed, 7 Dec 2005
10:56:54 -0800
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] How
toAuthenticate/Protect(WasEthernetbasedauthentication)
>
> >
For a customer to have single computer with a public IP, I
do have to use 4 IP addresses.
> >
> > There's the broadcast, network, and two hosts - one being
the gateway and one is the host.
> >
> >
However, I have only something like 5 clients with publid
IP's on thier side, every other client has NAT done at thier end, so, thier
CPE has a public IP interface, but all of thier machines have private
IP's. They can have multiple computers, and they generally just
share one public IP.
> >
> > So, for the most part, I use one public IP per client -
however... I subnet each access point, which has a 16 or 32 IP subnet attached
to it. And again, this "wastes" 3 IP's per subnet... your
broadcast, network, and of course, gateway IP.
> >
> >
However, monitoring traffic on the network shows
almost zilch for anything other than actual USE on the network.
> >
> > So, while I
suppose
we're technically "wasting" some IP's, we have a return for it, in that
actually attacking client's machines is almost impossible, and my network is
free of most broadcast and non-ip traffic.
> >
> > I hope to implement BGP and OSPF within
6
months network-wide. We'll have to see how this affects our
traffic levels negatively...
> >
> >
> >
> > North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
> >
personal
correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net
> > sales inquiries
to: purchasing at neofast dot net
> > Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
> >
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
----- Original Message -----
> > From: Marlon K.
Schafer (509) 982-2181
> > To: WISPA General List
> >
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:15 AM
> >
Subject:
Re: [WISPA] How toAuthenticate/Protect(WasEthernetbasedauthentication)
> >
> > I'm no expert so you
guys feel
free to correct me as needed.....
> >
> >
The smallest subnet needs 4 ip addys to work. Even
if it's three you get the idea. Still a huge waste of a very limited
and harder to get all the time resource.
> >
> >
Marlon
> > (509)
982-2181
Equipment sales
>
>
(408) 907-6910
(Vonage)
Consulting services
> >
42846865
(icq)
And I run my own wisp!
> > 64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
> > www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
> > www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
> >
> >
> >
> >
----- Original Message -----
> > From: Scott Reed
> > To: WISPA General List
> >
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:12 AM
> >
Subject: Re: [WISPA] How
toAuthenticate/Protect(WasEthernetbasedauthentication)
> >
> >
How were you looking at routing to use 3 for 1? I have
never setup routing that way and would like to be sure I don't. I am
running
> > fully routed from the get-go, with 3 internal
routers and
a 4th going in Friday. Actually 2 MTs as router only and 2 that are
> > "routing APs".
> >
> > Scott Reed
> > Owner
> > NewWays
> > Wireless
Networking
> >
Network Design, Installation and Administration
> > www.nwwnet.net
>
>
> > The season is Christmas, not X-mas, not the holiday, but
Christmas, because
> > Christ was born to provide salvation to
all
who will believe!
> >
> > ---------- Original
Message
-----------
> > From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "WISPA General List"
<wireless@wispa.org>
> > Sent: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 10:05:52
-0800
> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] How to
Authenticate/Protect(WasEthernetbasedauthentication)
> >
> >
> The idea, for me is that by the time a company gets to the point that
they
> > > need to route they'll either know what they are
doing.
And/or they'll have
> > > someone on staff just to
handle
that issue.
> > >
> > > The other problem I ran
into back
when was a shortage of ip addys. And
> > > routing to
every
customer wastes three ip addys for every one you get to
> > >
actually use. I don't think that's responsible stewardship.
>
>
> > >
> > > My new ap's block client to client
communications, and new manages switches
> > > that will vlan
and
packet filter will be the next upgrades I'll do.
> > >
> >
> We just broke the network in two. So I've got 150ish broadband
subs on one
> > > system and 150 on another. Not exact
numbers but close. One of the systems
> > > went from
t-1 to
10 meg so I don't have good numbers as to performance
> > >
issues.
> > >
> > > The other one still has 100
megs
coming into it. On that system I see no
> > >
difference.
> > >
> > > I'm sure there's room for
improvement.
There always will be if a guy wants
> > > to stay anywhere
near
the head of the pack.
> > >
> > > One other
thing that's
not been brought up yet is over building. Today we
> >
> can
build 3 to 10x more capacity into the network than the average customer
> > > is demanding for the same cost or very nearly so as
building
to meet
> > > customer demands. Having more capacity
than
is needed, so far, is allowing
> > > us to significantly
simplify
the network. Anyone can walk in here tomorrow
> > > and
take
over with a few phone calls to tech support at most. There's
> > > nothing fancy going on here. That's part of why I
can
take care of 250
> > > wireless subs, 50 fiber customers and
hundreds of dialup people with me and
> > > two gals that
share a
part time office job. Our wireless churn is almost
> >
>
nil. I've lost a couple lately due to some trouble at a tower site.
It's
> > > caused by jerk off competitors and their 1
watt
amps and 15+ db sector
> > > antennas though. And I
tried to
use a $120 sector where I normally use $400
> > > ones.
I'm
not sure I'll ever learn that lesson :-).
> > >
> >
> Will
we have to redo the network at some point in the future? Sure.
Will
> > > it suck? Sure. But that's then
and
this is now. We just redid half of it
> > > and it
sucked.
Big time. But only for a few days. WE have taken the
time
> > > to teach our customers how to do their own
networking
stuff just like we
> > > took the time to teach them how to
do
their own dialup stuff. When we need
> > > to make
changes
(or the customer changes their gear) they can usually take
> >
>
care of it themselves or with a little help from us via the phone.
> > >
> > > Both models work. The real
trick is
making sure that they get deployed in
> > > the right
situation.
Too big of a hammer is sometimes just as bad as too
> >
>
small of a one or vice verse.
> > >
> > > Oh
yeah, I'm
tired of hearing small networks getting talked down to. With
> > > 100 subs the average guy should be putting $2,000 to
$3,000
per month in the
> > > bank. That's enough money to
keep the
average mom home with the kids! We'd
> > > be there
today
if we would just stop growing. Man, a mom at home with the
>
>
> kids AND good cars to drive and a dad that's not working 80 hours per
week.
> > > Small WISPs are right in there with the American
dream
man! This is good
> > > stuff!
> > >
> > >
Laters,
> > > Marlon
> > > (509) 982-2181
Equipment sales
> > >
(408)
907-6910 (Vonage)
Consulting services
> > > 42846865 (icq)
And I run my own wisp!
> > > 64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
> > > www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
> > > www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
> > >
> >
> ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Lonnie
Nunweiler"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "WISPA General
List"
<wireless@wispa.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 06,
2005
5:43 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [WISPA] How to
> > >
Authenticate/Protect(WasEthernetbasedauthentication)
> > >
> > > And that is the second thing that guys do wrong.
They
use simple
> > > bridged clients which are vulnerable to the
issue
of the backwards
> > > router and they create a host of other
issues.
> > >
> > > You are building a network
that
connects to the Internet so why not
> > > use the same
network
design that the Internet uses? Routed. Sure you
> >
>
will find sections that are bridged but anything that leaves the
>
>
> backbone is routed to the customer.
> > >
> >
>
Bridged or rather no design is fine for small simple networks. Just
> > > plug things in and get on to the next job. As you
grow
the troubles
> > > will begin and then, eventually, you will
have
to reorganize your
> > > entire network and move to a routed
design. Why wait for all that
> > > pain? Do it
right,
from the start. Allow yourself to grow and not
> > >
have to
go through that second painful redesign.
> > >
> >
> I am
usually silent and just watch the lists, but when I see wrong
>
>
> advice given I cannot watch in silence. It is wrong to not use
DHCP
> > > and it is wrong to use a bridged design. If
you
have intentions of
> > > doing any sort of large customer
base,
please plan it correctly from
> > > the start. Do not
listen
to the guys who tell you to do it quick and
> > > dirty.
I
know this sounds preachy, but man, I get 10 calls a day from
> >
>
people who have stated out quick and dirty and they reach a certain
> > > size or get certain types of traffic, and their network
just
> > > collapses. The fix is to go to routed and when
they
realize how much
> > > work it is to convert it, they all
wish
they had followed my
> > > consistent advice. For more
than
5 years I have said the same thing
> > > on the various
lists.
I even got kicked off the Judd list for not
> > >
backing
down and agreeing that hacked together bridges were the way to
>
>
> go.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
Lonnie
> > >
> > > On 12/6/05, Marlon K. Schafer (509)
982-2181
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Yeah, until
some
lunkhead plugs his dsl router in backward. As they do
> >
>
> all
> > > > the time around here....
> >
> >
> > > > No thanks, no more DHCP troubles for me.
Been
there done that. Twice.
> > > > Never again.
> >
> >
> > > > Marlon
> > > > (509)
982-2181
Equipment sales
>
>
> > (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)
Consulting services
> > >
>
42846865 (icq)
And I
run my own wisp!
> > > > 64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
> >
> > www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
> > > > www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
----- Original
Message -----
> > > > From: "Lonnie Nunweiler"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List"
<wireless@wispa.org>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December
06,
2005 2:27 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [WISPA] How to
Authenticate/Protect
> > > >
(WasEthernetbasedauthentication)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
The same way you
do it if you didn't run DHCP. Use PPPoE, HotSpot,
> > >
>
static DHCP based on MAC, ACL for association at the AP, any number of
> > > > ways.
> > > >
> > >
> DHCP has
little to do with authentication, although it can be a part
> >
>
> of the process. What DHCP does is automate the user TCP
settings so
> > > > that if you renumber your system in
order
to move to routing it is
> > > > painless to assign new
numbers. If you have to change DNS servers
> > > >
then
that is also easy. Just change the DHCP config and within an
> > > > hour everybody is using the new DNS.
> >
> >
> > > > Don't run a network without it. It is
priceless.
> > > >
> > > > Lonnie
> > >
>
> >
> >
> > > > On 12/6/05, Ron Wallace
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > Lonnie,
> > > > > So Lonnie, if I run DHCP, on my customers
IP's,
how do I authenticate
> > > > > the users. I'm a
real
rookie at this.
> > > > > Ron Wallace
> >
> >
> ---- Original message ----
> > > > > >Date:
Tue, 6
Dec 2005 11:52:08 -0800
> > > > > >From: Lonnie
Nunweiler
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > >
>Subject:
Re: [WISPA] How to Authenticate/Protect (WasEthernet
> > >
>
> basedauthentication)
> > > > > >To: WISPA
General
List <wireless@wispa.org>
> > > > > >
>
> >
> > >If you take Marlon's advice and do not run DHCP then you get
to have
> > > > > >that personal contact with each
and
every subscriber if you ever have
> > > > > >to
change
network settings. With DHCP running it is real simple and
>
>
> > > >quick to edit the DHCP config and wait for the DHCP
client renewal .
> > > > > >
> > > >
>
>My advice is completely the opposite. Use DHCP for all of your
> > > > > >customers. You will be happy you
did and
will mutter things when you
> > > > > >encounter
someone
who is not on DHCP.
> > > > > >
> > >
> >
>The personal contact is nice but what if you have several hundred
> > > > > >customers? That is just a little
too
nice for my tastes.
> > > > > >
> > >
> >
>Lonnie
> > > > > >
> > > > >
>On
12/6/05, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >>
Don't run
DHCP! And use mac filtering at the ap's. (I use the
>
>
> > > smartbridges
> > > > > >> ap's.
they'll
do radius and authenticate wireless subs just like my
> > >
>
> dialup
> > > > > >> ones.)
> >
> >
> >>
> > > > > >> Marlon
> >
> >
> >> (509) 982-2181
Equipment sales
> > > > > >> (408)
907-6910
(Vonage)
Consulting services
> > > > > >> 42846865
(icq)
And I run my own
> > > > > wisp!
> > > > > >>
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
> > > > > >> www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
> > > >
>
>> www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
> > > >
>
>>
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> >>
> > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > > >> From: "Jason" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > >> To: "WISPA General List"
<wireless@wispa.org>
> > > > > >> Sent:
Monday,
December 05, 2005 9:39 PM
> > > > > >> Subject:
Re:
[WISPA] How to Authenticate/Protect (WasEthernet
> > > >
>
>> basedauthentication)
> > > > > >>
> >
> > > >>
> > > > > >> > Marlon,
> > > > > >> >
> > > > >
>>
> I appreciate the advice. Mostly I am interested in
bullet proof
> > > > > >> > authentication of
my
clients. Any suggestions?
> > > > > >>
>
> > > > > >> > Jason
> > > >
>
>> >
> > > > > >> > Marlon K. Schafer
(509) 982-2181 wrote:
> > > > > >> >
>
> >
> > >> >> Hiya Jason,
> > > > >
>>
>>
> > > > > >> >> You are mixing
your
networks.... You won't normally run a
> > > > >
homebrew
> > > > > >> >> product to provide
a
top notch service.
> > > > > >> >>
>
> >
> > >> >> If security is of THAT great an importance to
you, you should NOT
> > > > > run
> > >
> >
>> >> wifi anything. Put in something much more off the
wall. It's a
> > > > > lot
> > >
> >
>> >> harder to snoop if you don't use one of the world's most
common
> > > > > >> >> protocols.
>
> >
> > >> >>
> > > > > >> >>
For
these business guys I'd run Trango or something like that.
> >
>
> > Good
> > > > > >> >> stuff but
not
nearly as much of it in use and no free tools on the
> > >
>
> >> >> internet for intercepting and cracking the data
stream.
> > > > > >> >>
> > >
> >
>> >> What we do is remind our customers that this is the
internet.
> > > > > They are
> > > >
>
>> >> hanging out there for thousands upon thousands of people
who's
> > > > > only
> > > > >
>>
>> purpose in life is breaking into their machines and seeing what
> > > > > they can
> > > > >
>> >>
learn. If they have data that's that sensitive then they need a
> > > > > high end
> > > > >
>> >>
internal firewall and they need to VPN all internet traffic.
> >
>
> > >> >>
> > > > > >> >>
That
help?
> > > > > >> >> Marlon
> >
> >
> >> >> (509) 982-2181
Equipment sales
> > > > > >>
>>
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)
Consulting services
> > > > >
>>
>> 42846865 (icq)
And I run my
> > > > > own wisp!
> >
> >
> >> >> 64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
> > > >
>
>> >> www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
> > > >
>
>> >> www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
> > > >
>
>> >>
> > > > > >> >>
>
> >
> > >> >>
> > > > > >> >>
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason"
> > > > >
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > >>
>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
> >
>
> > >> >> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:20 PM
> > > > > >> >> Subject: [WISPA] How to
Authenticate/Protect (Was Ethernet
> > > > > >>
>> basedauthentication)
> > > > > >>
>>
> > > > > >> >>
> > > >
> >>
>>> List,
> > > > > >> >>>
> >
> > > >> >>> I am on the precipice,
ready to take the plunge and become a
> > > > > WISP
> > > > > >> >>> (After 1 year of
zoning,
permits, 16 hr days, etc), but one
> > > > > thing
still
> > > > > >> >>> bothers me. I
haven't
decided how to authenticate clients to my
> > > > >
network
> > > > > >> >>> and REALLY protect
their
data. The CPE's I will use,
> > > > >
rootenna/Senao2611
> > > > > >> >>>
combos,
do only WEP, which only obfuscates data nowadays. MAC
> > >
>
> addresses
> > > > > >> >>> can be
cloned. Proxy login via a browser is obnoxious for the
> >
>
> > end user.
> > > > > >> >>>
Ditto
PPPoE & VPN logins. There is just no elegant, KISS
> >
>
> > solution. I
> > > > > >>
>>>
was looking at PPPoE or PPTP (poptop/linux) with Radius as my
>
>
> > > system,
> > > > > >> >>>
since
this would accomplish it, but seems like so much trouble
> >
>
> > and
> > > > > >> >>> overhead.
PPTP
is not Mac friendly, PPPoE requires clients
> > > > >
(gasp)
or a
> > > > > >> >>> router (gack!) and
the
PPPoE server shipping with Linux is
> > > > > meant
"for
> > > > > >> >>> testing purposes only -
man". I want an Always On (apparently)
> > > > >
system
> > > > > >> >>> for my clients
that
just works.
> > > > > >> >>>
>
> >
> > >> >>> How do you other (small) WISPs do this?
> > > > > >> >>>
> > > >
>
>> >>> Tangent: How do you Senao 2611 users
keep Netbios & windows
> > > > > network
>
> >
> > >> >>> neighborhood data off the wireless
network. I was told to add a
> > > > > SOHO
> >
> > > >> >>> router to the mix, but don't want to
invest in more equipment to
> > > > > >>
>>>
maintain.
> > > > > >> >>>
> >
> >
> >> >>> Jason Wallace
> > > > >
>>
>>> --
> > > > > >> >>> WISPA
Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > > > > >>
>>>
> > > > > >> >>>
Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > > > >> >>>
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > > > > >> >>>
> > > >
>
>> >>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
> > >> >>>
> > > > > >>
>>
> > > > > >> > --
> > > > >
>>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > > > >
>> >
> > > > > >> >
Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > > > >> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > > > > >> >
> > > > >
>>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
> > >> >
> > > > > >>
>
> >
> > >> --
> > > > > >> WISPA Wireless
List: wireless@wispa.org
> > > > > >>
>
> >
> > >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > > >
>>
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
>>
Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
> > >>
> > > > > >
> > >
> >
>
> > > > > >--
> > > > >
>Lonnie
Nunweiler
> > > > > >Valemount Networks Corporation
> > > > > >http://www.star-os.com/
> > > > >
>--
> > > > > >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > > > > >
> > > > >
>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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> > Ron Wallace
> > > > > Hahnron, Inc.
>
> >
> > 220 S. Jackson St.
> > > > > Addison, MI
49220
> > > > >
> > > > > Phone:
(517)
547-8410
> > > > > Mobile: (517) 605-4542
> >
> > > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
>
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> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > --
> > > > Lonnie Nunweiler
> > > > Valemount
Networks
Corporation
> > > > http://www.star-os.com/
> > > > --
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> > >
> > > --
> > > Lonnie
Nunweiler
> > > Valemount Networks Corporation
> > > http://www.star-os.com/
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> ------- End of Original Message -------
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