My apologies to the list, it was supposed to have been off-list. My apologies to Jack and Lawrence too. I took Jack's post the wrong way and responded in an unprofessional manner. Tends to show one's IQ level at 3:00 AM after a few too many late night drinks after a rough week.
Cheers, Scott ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: RickG <rgunder...@gmail.com> Reply-To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org> Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 21:25:03 -0400 >I have been on this list since 2001. I have seen many toot their own >horns whenever they can and I have seen others that dont. I have also >seen many get their feathers ruffled way too easy. Either way, there >are some that can talk the talk, some that walk the walk, some that >talk the walk, and some that walk the talk. As they say, just because >you can do something doesnt mean you should. Most of the "talkers" >have left the list with their undies in a bind. I suggest that before >sending out an email, try to rein your ego in a bit and the list will >be better for it. After all isnt this list to help others, or get >help, not to be self-serving? > >This is not pointed at any one person, just my two cents on the subject. > >With that said, its been my experience in visiting many WISP's around >the country that they are some of the sharpest people around. In my >mind, WISP's are a perfect example of good 'ol business ingenuity and >entrepreneurship if there ever was one. My hat is off to all of you! >-RickG > >On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Rick Harnish <rharn...@wispa.org> wrote: >> Scottie, >> >> I read the whole thread and I don't see any remarks by Jack Unger that >> should be taken personally. He made a very fair and honest observation. I >> only wish I knew more about wireless. I have read Jack's book and recommend >> it as well, but I think I should read it a few more times and pick up some >> other scientific journals to also enhance my knowledge of the subject. >> >> I also didn't see anything wrong with your post in reply to Lawrence. >> Acronyms are used often in present times and I often have to look up the >> acronym to see what the author is referring to. Usually in a few keystrokes >> I can find the answer, which is a credit to the Internet industry. >> >> This is a forum of intelligent people and it often challenges our diligence >> to enhance our intelligence even more. I do not believe Jack's post was a >> direct comment towards Scottie Arnett. I have known Jack for many years and >> am always very impressed with the amount of dedication and time he devotes >> to our industry. I can only hope that you will someday advance beyond >> trying to read extra content into other's posts and understand that most >> people don't know who Scottie Arnett is or what contributions you have made >> to the industry. I'm sure you have great respect for your accomplishments in >> your local marketplace and I applaud you for that. However, WISPA is bigger >> than any one small marketplace. WISPA is the sum of lots of small >> marketplaces and operators who realize the strength of cooperating and >> collaborating with others who have similar interests and challenges. >> >> Respectfully, >> >> Rick Harnish >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >> Behalf Of Scottie Arnett >> Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 3:32 AM >> To: wireless@wispa.org >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] To G or not to G :-) >> >> Ok Jack, I have to admit, I have not read your book, but if it reads like >> this discussion, I have no desire too, unless you 1. either state that your >> book is for the advanced wireless subjects, or 2. Thoroughly describe your >> acronyms. >> >> FYI, I do understand most of the poster's acronyms, but for the average WISP >> operator, I doubt they do. I have a BS in Electrical Engineering and a BS in >> Management of Information Sciences, not to be tooting my own horn. No, I do >> not work for Alvarion or Motorola, nor do I have a desire too. >> >> Maybe I was in the wrong with my post about the poster's acronyms and my >> direct criticism with the use of acronyms. I also believe your post was in >> direct comment to me about my understanding and involvement of WISP >> activities. I publicly admit, I am not a member of WISPA at the moment, and >> as long as as an acting officer or "supreme WISPA being" is degrading me, I >> will not become a member. >> >> Scottie Arnett >> President >> Info-Ed, Inc. >> Broadband Internet Service Provider >> >> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >> From: Jack Unger <jun...@ask-wi.com> >> Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 22:39:38 -0700 >> >>><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> >>><html> >>><head> >>> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> >>> <title></title> >>></head> >>><body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> >>>Yep it's too bad that many wireless ISPs have no interest in learning >>>about wireless. <br> >>><br> >>>Scottie Arnett wrote: >>><blockquote cite="mid:200910040029.aa21037...@mail.info-ed.com" >>> type="cite"> >>> <pre wrap="">I am reading your response and can not decipher all your >> algorithms? Point that out and I will have a much more understanding of what >> you are scientifically trying to say. Most WISPS have absolutely no >> scientific background! >>> >>>John >>> >>>---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >>>From: "Lawrence E. Bakst" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" >> href="mailto:m...@iridescent.org";><m...@iridescent.org></a> >>>Reply-To: WISPA General List <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" >> href="mailto:wireless@wispa.org";><wireless@wispa.org></a> >>>Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 00:15:45 -0400 >>> >>> </pre> >>> <blockquote type="cite"> >>> <pre wrap="">I think you guys know most of this already, but here is my >> take FWIW. >>> >>>I'm not a WISP, but I spent 5 years leading the design and development of >> an 802.11[agb] security system. We did our own polling solution based on >> 802.11e HCCA to solve the RTS/hidden node problem. >>> >>>All things being equal (which they often aren't) 802.11b will give you a >> higher S/N and C/I than 802.11g, because in almost all cases and especially >> at higher speeds. 802.11g has to lower the PA power because of the PAPR of >> OFDM and meeting the 802.11g EVM spec. >>> >>>It is true that 2.4 GHz can be very polluted. We found the noise floor to >> be really awful. You would be surprised by the number of "entities" that >> know they are way over the FCC max power in 2.4 GHz, but I digress. We once >> measured over 300 PHY errors a second on an "unused" 2.4 GHz channel. The >> number went down to 150 PHY errors a second inside an FCC chamber, if you >> can believe that. >>> >>>Having said all that we didn't use 802.11b at all because it's data rates >> are too low for video. >>> >>>Also while we supported 2.4 GHz, we mostly deployed at 5.8 GHz ISM because >> of the increased power available there and the pollution was much less, but >> that maybe different now. >>> >>>For 802.11[ag] mutlipoint, the sweet spot speed wise is 18-36 Mbps. It's >> very hard to keep a multipoint system at 48 or 54 Mbps because you need a >> great deal of link margin and with all cards you loose power as the speed >> increases to maintain PAPR/EVM. For point to point with direction antenna >> relief you can often maintain 48 or 54. >>> >>>Antennae make a big difference, as others have noted horizontal >> polarization is usually best and make the beam as narrow as you can afford >> because it raises the effective gain. However, if you are in an area where >> everyone else is horizontal it can make sense to try vertical. With some of >> the antennae we used that was as simple as rotating the antenna 90 deg at >> both ends. >>> >>>Watch out for crappy antennae, cheap cable, bad connectors, and so on. That >> can often cost you a few dB. In the product I designed I spent more time >> then I care to admit trying to make a very tough loss budget that I set out >> as a goal. >>> >>>There is no substitute for link margin, you can never really have enough. >>> >>>I can confirm that our sweeps with a spectrum analyzer show lots of >> opportunity to use 5 and 10 MHz channels, as others have also noted. For >> WISPs it would be "nice" if chip vendors designed the radios so that you >> could set the channel bandwidth from 5-40 MHz in 1 MHz increments. It can be >> done but probably won't be, although maybe the Microsoft WhiteFI stuff force >> the chip vendors to do it. In WiMax and LTE they are already doing some >> things close to this. Still 5, 10, and 20 isn't bad and probably hits the >> sweet spot or 80/20 rule. >>> >>>One of the down sides of fitting a 5 or 10 MHz channel in a sweet spot is >> that it can change at any time. >>> >>>Best, >>> >>>leb >>> >>>At 9:58 AM -0500 10/1/09, Jason Hensley wrote: >>> </pre> >>> <blockquote type="cite"> >>> <pre wrap="">In 2.4 land, if you have a lot of noise, which protocol >> is better - B or G? >>>Is it better to run an AP as locked into one mode or is it OK to do a mix? >>> >>>Max I want off of 2.4 customers is 3meg so not that worried about the extra >>>speed that G will provide, but, I would like to know which is more stable? >>>I've always thought that B was more stable overall but just provided less >>>bandwidth. I've gotten some info that may counter that. What's the >>>real-world experience with folks in a high-noise environment, combined with >>>a higher useage AP? >>> >>>I've got an AP that we've run in B mode only for a while. We've started >>>having problems with it - speeds go from 3meg at the customer to 200k and >>>fluctuate constantly. We've worked with RTS, ACK timeouts, etc etc and >>>nothing seems to have improved the stability. For testing purposes we put >>>up another AP right next to the one we're having trouble with. Switched >> two >>>of our gaming clients to that one (setup as G mode only) and they seem to >> be >>>doing better, but not quite as good as we feel they could be. This is on >>>Deliberant AP's (Duos). The backhaul part of it is not the issue - we can >>>pull close to 15meg back to our office when cabled into the AP. We have >>>other Deliberant APs that are running MANY more clients than this one so we >>>know it's not limitations of the equipment. AP is on top of a water tower. >>>Have taken all clients off and brought them back on one by one and it did >>>not reveal anything significant. With just one customer on the AP started >>>acting up again. Swapped radios in the AP thinking we could have one going >>>bad and still no luck. >>> >>>2.4 antennas are H-pol. We have a ton of noise in the area, but we've been >>>through basically every channel and it did not help either. Other AP's in >>>the vicinity are performing fine. Thought of the multipath issue so we >>>raised our test AP up a little higher than the other one. As I said, the >>>test AP seems to be better, but next to it on top of the tower we can get >>>around 8 or 9 meg down (locked into G mode), but at the CPE's we're still >>>barely getting 2.5-2.8meg. >>> >>>Any thoughts? We changed everything we can. The new "test" AP has a 9db >>>antenna compared to the 13db on the "production" AP. Other than that, they >>>are identical as far as equipment goes. >>> >>>So, back to the subject question though, what's real-world experience with >>>G-only mode in the field? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >>>WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" >> href="http://signup.wispa.org/";>http://signup.wispa.org/</a> >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >>> >>>WISPA Wireless List: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" >> href="mailto:wireless@wispa.org";>wireless@wispa.org</a> >>> >>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" >> href="http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless";>http://lists.wispa.o >> rg/mailman/listinfo/wireless</a> >>> >>>Archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" >> href="http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/";>http://lists.wispa.org/pip >> ermail/wireless/</a> >>> </pre> >>> </blockquote> >>> <pre wrap=""> >>>-- >>><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" >> href="mailto:l...@iridescent.org";>l...@iridescent.org</a> >>> >>> >>> >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >>>WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" >> href="http://signup.wispa.org/";>http://signup.wispa.org/</a> >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >>> >>>WISPA Wireless List: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" >> href="mailto:wireless@wispa.org";>wireless@wispa.org</a> >>> >>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" >> href="http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless";>http://lists.wispa.o >> rg/mailman/listinfo/wireless</a> >>> >>>Archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" >> href="http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/";>http://lists.wispa.org/pip >> ermail/wireless/</a> >>>--- >>>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >>> >>> >>> </pre> >>> </blockquote> >>> <pre wrap=""><!----> >>>Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as >> $30.00/mth. >>>Check out <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" >> href="http://www.info-ed.com/wireless.html";>www.info-ed.com/wireless.html</a >>> for information. >>> >>> >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >>>WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" >> href="http://signup.wispa.org/";>http://signup.wispa.org/</a> >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >>> >>>WISPA Wireless List: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" >> href="mailto:wireless@wispa.org";>wireless@wispa.org</a> >>> >>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" >> href="http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless";>http://lists.wispa.o >> rg/mailman/listinfo/wireless</a> >>> >>>Archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" >> href="http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/";>http://lists.wispa.org/pip >> ermail/wireless/</a> >>> >>> >>> </pre> >>></blockquote> >>><br> >>><pre class="moz-signature" cols="80">-- >>>Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. >>>Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs" >>>Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 >>><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" >> href="http://www.ask-wi.com";>www.ask-wi.com</a> 818-227-4220 <a >> class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" >> href="mailto:jun...@ask-wi.com";>jun...@ask-wi.com</a> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>></pre> >>></body> >>></html> >>>--- >>>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >>> >>> >> >> Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as >> $30.00/mth. >> Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---- >> WISPA Wants You! 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