I dont have the time either, I'm just lazy. And its easier to write, than face
the reality that I should really be working :-)
After News years, I'll probably disappear for a while, work is piling up.
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Hogg
To: WISPA General List
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Tom:
I'm always impressed with the time you take in writing the responses you do.
I wish I had that kind of time, I barely have enough time to read them.
Regards,
Chuck
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Tom DeReggi <wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net>
wrote:
Robert,
Still missing some relevent detail...
New WISP uses 2.4 sectors.
Is the Old WISP boy also using 2.4G sectors?
As well, is the Rocket gear Single Pol or MIMO dual pol gear?
Expecially, is the new provider's 5.8G PTP and Rocket Sectors MIMO?
Legally- Part15 means everyone must deploy assuming the risk that there
could be interference. There are two potential outcomes. 1) Coordination and
cooperation or 2) survival of the fittest. This might also come down to who
has the best contract with the grain towers. Whether anyone gained solid
non-interference clauses or spectrum exclusivity clauses in their contracts,
versus hand shake deals.
I dont agree with the assessment that the problem is the Old Boy's "bad"
design or unwillingness to change. (see below for justification)
The fact is, he was there first and had the flexibility to design optimally
for his need, and there was really no need for him to design for the new
providers need, becaue the new provider did not exist at that time. At the end
oif the day, he has pre-existing custoemrs that need him and that he needs
revenue from, and he isn;t going to bail on that pre-existing money tree, that
has been in motion for years. He will fight harder than the new provider
because, he has more at stake to protect, even though it may be on a smaller
scale.
Both parties are equally obligated to build their networks as interference
resilent as possible. But there are multiple dissimilar approaches to
accomplishing that that is jsut as good as another. So who's to say what is
ultimately the best practice. Its tough for a company who has built a network
on a single pol and 20Mhz design, and change to a dual pol 10Mhz design.
Whats less efficient? Dual Omnis each single pol, or two sectors with dual
pol? Omnis are not always bad, IF there is adequate physical obstruction
isolation between grain towers, and using polarity as a mechanism of
interference isolation also helps. If some else is operating on 20Mhz, a new
provider on 10Mhz may not help, because it still steps on half the 20Mhz
channel.
I'd argue that the best way to coexist is to get rid of the Dual Pol on the
New provider's Mimo rockets, IF THEY are using Dual POl MIMO. If Old BOy is
using Omnis everywhere he likely is using Verticle pol everywhere. So, New WISP
should physically CAP the verticle pol on their Rocket radios, and leave Chain
Zero on Horizontal polarity only. Then move new WISP back to 20Mhz if you need
to to regain the capacity. Problem solved. But if you rely on polarity as the
mechanism of isolation, it simplifies everything, so much easier than channel
coordination. Remember that Polarity isolation often has much better isolation
than adjacent channel isolation. With OFDM you really need 20db of SNR min, and
polarity isolation will get you that. Its hard to get that without polarity
isolation. Bottom line is, if you both choose a different polarity, and stick
to it, you wont interfere with each other, just with yourself. But,
self-interference is much easier to isolate, when you know everything about
your own network, and can make the best choices and trade off for your network.
And you can make those changes without answering or coordinating with someone
else. Thats the benefit of relying on Pol isolation. If old boy is using Omni,
and new WISP is using sectors, its a perfect situation for old boy to take
Verticle and New WISP to take Horizontal.
Dont get me wrong, I love Ubiquiti MIMO when I can use it, but MIMO has a
major flaw, and that is co-existing with others is much more difficult,
expecially if they are using 20Mhz gear.
I hate to say it, but ethically, I'd side with Old WISP boy. Comming in new
with MIMO gear would surely going to cause interference to pre-existing
deployments, and the MIMO would restrict your flexibility to resolve. If a new
provider came in with UNiquiti standard (non MIMO model), Id call it even more
irresponsbile. Bulilt-in spectrum analyzers are NEEDED in today's day and age
to adeqautely co-exist.
To be honest... I really think the burden to prevent interference belongs
to the new installer during installation. An installtion should not continue,
if its known to cause interference. This is the reason its so important for
Freq Spectrum Analyzers to be built-in to all APs. Thats the biggest benefit to
Ubiquiti-M ! Did the new provider scan before they deployed? Or did they just
make a template and start putting it up accross all the grain towers
everywhere? 2.4Ghz does not have a lot of channels to share, and its pushing it
to come in enw and overbuilding a pre-existing 2.4 network, as it would be
almost guarateed to cause some interference. Ive never respected the Built
first by brute force, and deal with it later approach, while pre-existing boy's
customers scream outage. All that does is create animosity that maybe the new
WISP things they can just come in and run over everybody without consequences.
Dont automatically assume that sectoring the Old Boy's network will solve
the problem. It depends on where the interference is. If he has an Omni he's
only using one channel, and when he adds sectors he'll be using three, that
will be scarces to come by. For secorization to help enough, you'd need to be
confident that the towers are far enough apart, that the channel reuse will be
possible. And its also possible that some omni locations may not support
sectors cosmetically. Such as if he uses a home on tall ground as relay points.
The good news is that sectorization no longer has to be expensive, When
Rockets and antenna can be had for under $250. (Allthough there is still
cabling, Arrestors, switches , etc that add up). So maybe Old WISP Boy could
also benefit from sectorization in some places, to justify his own cooperation.
You also were not clear on whether primary interference was on the 2.4G or
5.8G, backhauls or sectors?
As well, I'd suggest fully exploring whether all the available freq ranges
are being used to their potential to avoid interference. For example... I'm
sure 5.8Ghz is being used for sectors mostly, because that is what is FCC legal
to use with Ubiquiti. But what about the backhauls? 5.3 and 5.4 backhauls can
go 7-10 miles, with 2-3ft dish on both ends. HAve the backhauls been converted
to 5.3-4?
I agree that switching sectors from 2.4 to 5.8 or 5.3/4 likely wont work
against the foliage and trees. But, if interference is at 5.8, you may very
well do OK with 5.3/4 PTPs for backhaul.
If your interference is at 2.4G, dont lock your self down to that. You
mentioned that you are trying 3.65, but dont forget 900Mhz. Sure its lower
capacity, but it will help with the trees.
I'll also note... Dont just assume its equally the responsibility for old
boy to pay to rebuild his network to accommodate a new arrival. In all my tower
contracts, I have first in protection.
If a new arrival wants me to change my infrasstructure to make room for
them to also deploy, IF I agree, the new arrival is responsbile for paying the
cost to cover my relocation or change plan.
As well, lets look at it from the old boys perception. He considered the
grain towers his home market. Then some new guy comes to town, and takes ALL
the grain towers away from him, and takes away the old boy's expansion market.
Old boy feels violated by New Boy. If I were the NEw WISP, I'd not only worry
about interference, but I'd also worry about behind the scene retaliation. How
far would someone go to protect their home? Vandalism? Bad mouthing?
Intentional interference? Its a risky business to go overbuild someone's home
market.
What I can tell you is that with 2.4Ghz, a survival of the fittest spectrum
battle will not have any winners, there just isn't enough spectrum in 2.4Ghz.
The ONLY way to work it out has to be to work it out amicably. It really
doesn;t matter how many times the Old boy pciks up the phone to call new WISP,
the calls are never gonna stop until teh Old Boy doesn't have itnerference. If
his interference is not solved, he'll make sure he puts you in a position,
where you'll be calling him soon enough to try to resolve interference.
When it comes to unlicensed RF, its an equal playing field, the small guy
doesn't have to accept being pushed around or bullied by the bigger guy, and
I'm sure that is what the samller guy feels, whether its true or not..
Also, no need to be consistent everywhere. There is no reason you cant use
two 2.4 sectors ata tower and have the third sector be 3.65, if only one
direction is a pain point. For example, everywhere facing one of Old Boy's
towers use 3.65 or 900.
As well, dont assume 5-10 miles sector coverage is to long. That is a
common distance built into many WISP networks, to make it possible for a ROI in
a rural market.
LAstly, the new WISP is lighting up tons of new grain towers. Old boy has
60 subs. How many towers could Old Boy realistically have with only 60
customers?
This really doesn't sound like such a difficult challenge to resolve. If
new WISP is lighting up tons of grain legs (aka lots of markets), It wouldn't
be that painful to stay off old Old Boy's network area, it cant be all that
large?
I can give an example of one of our markets, where there are about 400
homes and three WISPs, where 900Mhz is the ONLY option.. .
I use sectors, they tend to use Omnis. We manage to co-exist. Omnis are
plusses, because I know their is a financial incenticve for them to select
Verticle pol, so when I use sectors it makes it much easier for me to steer
around them. And I'm not greedy. I let them have their 50 subs, closest to
their towers, and wouldn't ever think about marketing their backdoor step..
I'd rather focus on the 200 customers in the other direction that I'm
closer to. There is enough market to go around. All new undeployed markets are
fair game to who get their first.
So summary of recommendation....
1) Check contractual protections in both WISP's grain tower contracts.
2) Try each picking a unique exclusive polarity for their radios.
3) ONly Deploy AP and BAckhaul radios that have built-in spectrum
analyzers. (Ubiquiti-M or Trango Tlink). If using Ubiquiti and MIMO, for
Rockets cap off chain 1 antenna to disable, or using Bullets that are single
pol MIMO.
4) Use 5.2/4 for backhauls everywhere possible.
5) Where non-interference cant be acheived at 2.4G, use 3.65 and 900Mhz.
Also another approach.... IF coexistance can be acheived. Then you are back
at aquisition discussion. How can aquisition be avoided. Two ways...
1) AP sharing
or
2) Customer swapping.
1- Come to the realizing that two tower cant exist next to each other in
the same market. Agree to share your APs with him, and and vice versa, at an
equal bi-direction monitary rate to each other. Some APs will get taken down.
You will control some towers and he'll control others. But neither will loose
control of their customer.
2- All your customers next to his tower you sell to him, and his customers
next to you he sells to you. Do it on a 1 to 1 trade. And stop tradding when
there is no more interference. Pay the same rate bi-directionally, so no
dolalrs have to change hands. Then its just a few phone calls... Hey... let me
introduce you to your new provider, you'll get bills from him now.
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert West
To: 'WISPA General List'
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:55 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
I’m throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any
experience with something like this or any ideas.
Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring
broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of
charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in
exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local
customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good
sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and
with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the
APs. Network has been working perfectly.
That’s the setup. Now for the trouble.
There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so.
(Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to
use him for whatever reason) It’s reported that boy is in love with Bullets
and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and
Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on
those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old
WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network.
New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again,
interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes
yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the
phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old
wisp and still he wouldn’t be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners
of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new
wisp, “What’s Up?” Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for
fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, “Chill, don’t even think of buying that idiot
and his duct tape network”. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know
how long that sucker takes and the limitations it has with number of channels
and the $$ premium per unit. New wisp has been very nice to all parties and
has done, from what I see, about all he can do. He’s within all power
regulations and has bent over backwards to every request put to him by this
guy. (One of the last comments from old WISP was that he would get a sector
and, in so many words, blast him and take down his network)
Now the latest. Old wisp has contacted the leg owners and has put
together a meeting between old wisp, all of new wisps grain leg owners, new
wisp and two outside parties, one of which is related to old wisp boy.
New Wisp is at a loss to what more can be accomplished other than old
wisp upgrade his OMNIs to sectors in order to isolate the RF away from a
competing channel.
Anyone have any solid resolutions that he can throw out to old wisp boy ?
Surely someone here has been there before.
Thanks!
Robert West
Just Micro Digital Services Inc.
740-335-7020
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