I think the presentation/structure dichotomy is a bit misleading...let's
talk about presentation/content (the "structure" of a page makes me
think of its presentation rather than the content that the presentation
is presenting).
And I'll just throw this out there: Does anyone know how screen readers
handle HR's?
The use I see for HR is not presentational, par se, but rather to
separate large amounts of content and make it more readable. It is the
web's equivalent to a novel's line of asterisks, used to communicate a
break in plot, location, or time, and is therefore part of the content
just like paragraphs are. A border fails to complete this purpose for
two reasons:
(1) A border must be associated with a container element. Thus, in
order to logically break apart large parts of text, the text cannot be
contained in the "same flow" within one container. One might say that
you could easily add a border and appropriate margin to even something
as simple as a paragraph tag, but that ignores the use specified above.
If I have a chapter or a report, the horizontal rule is a characteristic
of that larger unit, not the last paragraph that occurs before the break.
(2) A border will vanish should the style/application change. The
reason I asked about screen readers is that an HR used correctly is part
of the content. It dictates how that content should be subdivided and
interpreted. Think of what horizontal rules accomplish in books,
journals, magazines, and other text-oriented atmospheres. Is it
presentation? Sure. Just like paragraph breaks (or even commas and
periods) are presentation - they provide a basic building block for
readable content, and are so basic that they become a part of the
content. Deliver that content to a website, a publication, or an oral
presentation, and in each circumstance the break should have an effect
to that delivery, whether it's a visual line or a pause in delivery to
communicate a division to listeners.
Now, having said this I realize that W3C does not agree in the strictest
sense:
"The HR element causes a horizontal rule to be *rendered by visual* user
agents."
(http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/present/graphics.html#h-15.3)
However, I think if we look at the larger use of horizontal rules in
other mediums, we'll see that there's still a place for them on the web,
especially if we want a web that can store content from those other mediums.
What are your thoughts? Did I convince you? ;-)
-Nate
*Nathan Rutman* ([EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>)
Corporate Communications Designer
*Solvepoint Corporation*
882 South Matlack Street, Suite 110
West Chester, PA 19382
800.388.1850 x1208
484.356.0990 (fax)
www.solvepoint.com <http://www.solvepoint.com>
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
Kenny Graham wrote:
Am I alone in feeling that <hr> should be depreciated in favor of CSS
borders? Especially with <section> in the XHTML 2.0 drafts, what
semantic or even structural value does <hr> have? Every argument for
its retention that I've heard so far has been presentation related.
Well, I only use <hr> for non-CSS browsers / software (hidden from
graphical browsers), so I find it to be a handy element for dividing
content at times. Adds a little structure...
Borders and other types of separators are fine, so those are preferred
for presentational use in graphical browsers.
If the future brings better solutions, then I'll probably use those
instead - once the browsers have caught up.
regards
Georg
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