You could use the same argument to say that all markup in sematicly neutral. That the B tag and STRONG tags have the same semantic weight since end users, the consumers of the web, nerevr look at the markup and are largely uninterested in how the content gets to be that way it is.
We could easily lose our way and wander into the land of pedantic semiotic debate. And I'm not saying that couldn't be fun, although I never did well at semiotics when I studied them as an undergrad :(. As developers, we are the *only* ones that the semantic web benefits (until microformats take off, and there is some kind of client support, but there is problems in that too.). The humble P tag is semantic in it's own right. It dentoes relativley clearly that a block of text is a paragraph. By adding a class or id to that P tag I *add* to it's semantic meaning by clarifying that it is a certain kind of paragraph. A specialist subset of the normal generic semantic, if you like. What is *not* semantic, is if I use a P tag, give it a class called "Q" and style it font-weight:bold and use it as a heading. The class name "Q" is meaningless (no semantic value). By styling the P bold and making it a heading, you are subverting the existing semantic by not using a H tag instead. But at the end of the day, this will only piss of the people on this mailing list, and the next developer to work on your web site. The users will still see a nice bold heading. The semantics are meanlingless to them. I'd love it if there was enough client support that semantics mattered to more then just those of who care about the aestetics of the code. But such support is just not wide spread enough. I spent a lot of time marking up our staff listing page with microformant stuff and I'm proud of what I did. But I know that apart from myself, and one or two other people who grock this stuff, this work isn't going to be appreciated in any meaningful way for years to come. Plugins like Tails and Operator are fantastic, but so far as I can see, only of use to those of us goofing around with this stuff. Lucien. Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> "Rob Kirton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 21/05/07 9:31 PM >>> More precisely, the use of id and class can only add semantic value to developers or to those who have to maintain the site. They have no bearing on "real world" semantics in terms of benefit derived by end users and page retrieval via search engines. To that end they are semantically neutral -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others : http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 21/05/07, Mordechai Peller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Paul Novitski wrote: > > Mordechai, please elaborate on this point: how does HTML lose semantic > > value when ids & classes are added? I think of ids & classes as being > > semantically neutral or inert. > When used properly, ids and classes add semantic value. (That ids and > classes can add value is, in part, the basis for microformats.) For > example, id="nav-main", id="footer", class="price" all add value. > However, there's values in scarcity. When ids and classes are scarce > there is an implied value which is imparted because "this element has > one and that element doesn't." With class="bullet1", class="bullet2", > class="bullet3", etc., their value is somewhat diluted. > > > ******************************************************************* > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ******************************************************************* > > ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ******************************************************************* Swinburne University of Technology CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment. Please consider the environment before printing this email. ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *******************************************************************
