On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 09:27:43PM +0200, Jan Kiszka wrote:
> On 2016-05-12 21:08, Philippe Gerum wrote:
> > On 05/12/2016 08:42 PM, Jan Kiszka wrote:
> >> On 2016-05-12 20:35, Philippe Gerum wrote:
> >>> On 05/12/2016 08:24 PM, Jan Kiszka wrote:
> >>>> On 2016-05-12 20:20, Gilles Chanteperdrix wrote:
> >>>>> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 07:17:15PM +0200, Jan Kiszka wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2016-05-12 19:12, Gilles Chanteperdrix wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 06:59:04PM +0200, Gilles Chanteperdrix wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 06:50:03PM +0200, Jan Kiszka wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 2016-05-12 18:31, Gilles Chanteperdrix wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 06:06:16PM +0200, Jan Kiszka wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> Gilles,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> regarding commit bec5d0dd42 (rtdm: make syscalls conforming
> >>>>>>>>>>> rather than
> >>>>>>>>>>> current) - I remember a discussion on that topic, but I do not
> >>>>>>>>>>> find its
> >>>>>>>>>>> traces any more. Do you have a pointer
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> In any case, I'm confronted with a use case for the old (Xenomai
> >>>>>>>>>>> 2),
> >>>>>>>>>>> lazy switching behaviour: lightweight, performance sensitive IOCTL
> >>>>>>>>>>> services that can (and should) be called without any switching
> >>>>>>>>>>> from both
> >>>>>>>>>>> domains.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Why not using a plain linux driver? ioctl_nrt callbacks are
> >>>>>>>>>> redundant with plain linux drivers.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Because that enforces the calling layer to either call the same
> >>>>>>>>> service
> >>>>>>>>> via a plain Linux device if the calling thread is currently relaxed
> >>>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>> go for the RT device if the caller is in primary. Doable, but I
> >>>>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>>>> really like to avoid this pain for the users.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> What were the arguments in favour of migrating threads to
> >>>>>>>>>>> real-time first?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I currently see the real need only for IOCTLs, but the question
> >>>>>>>>>>> is then
> >>>>>>>>>>> if we shouldn't go back to "__xn_exec_current" in all RTDM cases
> >>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> avoid unwanted migration costs (which are significantly higher
> >>>>>>>>>>> than
> >>>>>>>>>>> syscall restarts).
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I do not find commit bec5d0dd42 in xenomai-2.6 git tree, and I do
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Xenomai 2 is still following the lazy scheme - we reverted that
> >>>>>>>>> commit
> >>>>>>>>> later on in 7df0c1d96b. Xenomai 3 changed it again with the commit
> >>>>>>>>> above.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> not remember merging this. However I find commit
> >>>>>>>>>> 13bfdd477ab880499d2e8f3b82c49ef4d2cccff0 from 2010 which seems to
> >>>>>>>>>> explain the reason pretty clear.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> At the time of the discussion we had concluded that it was the way
> >>>>>>>>>> to go. With __xn_exec_current you may enter the ioctl_rt callback
> >>>>>>>>>> from secondary domain, which is counter-intuitive, error-prone, and
> >>>>>>>>>> forces you to cripple driver code for checks for the current
> >>>>>>>>>> domain.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Nope, normal drivers are not affected as they just implement those
> >>>>>>>>> services in the respective mode they want to support there and have
> >>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> simple -ENOSYS for the rest (explicitly in IOCTLs or implicitly by
> >>>>>>>>> leaving out the implementation of the counterpart handler).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Yes, I got mixed up trying to remember. I think the crux of the
> >>>>>>>> problem is that if a thread running in primary mode gets
> >>>>>>>> (temporarily) switched to secondary mode by gdb, the ioctl_nrt
> >>>>>>>> handler gets invoked, which is almost certainly the wrong thing to
> >>>>>>>> do. You want the thread to migrate to primary mode to execute
> >>>>>>>> ioctl_rt, which __xn_exec_conforming achieves. Otherwise running an
> >>>>>>>> application in gdb causes the application to behave differently.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And trying and avoiding this issue indeed cripple codes with checks
> >>>>>>> for rtdm_in_rt_context:
> >>>>>>> https://git.xenomai.org/xenomai-2.6.git/tree/ksrc/drivers/analogy/rtdm_interface.c#n194
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't remember details here, but this is a special case: The driver
> >>>>>> provides also read_nrt - is that really useful for Analogy?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In most cases, you are fine with not providing the nrt (or rt) handler,
> >>>>>> or with a simple
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> default:
> >>>>>> return -ENOSYS;
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> in your ioctl dispatcher.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You are missing the point: if you enter read_nrt, there are two
> >>>>> cases:
> >>>>> - either the thread is real-time capable and has been relaxed by gdb
> >>>>> and you want to switch to read_rt for the reasons I already
> >>>>> explained, in that case, you must return -ENOSYS;
> >>>>> - or the thread is not real-time capable and the nrt handler
> >>>>> applies.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So, you need at least
> >>>>>
> >>>>> read_nrt()
> >>>>> {
> >>>>> if (rt_capable)
> >>>>> return -ENOSYS;
> >>>>>
> >>>>> /* Do the normal case here */
> >>>>> }
> >>>>
> >>>> Now tell me how many drivers have read_nrt, write_nrt? 1 in-tree.
> >>>> recvmsg_nrt, sendmsg_nrt? 0 in-tree. Analogy is special (still like to
> >>>> understand why, though). And having some special code in the exceptional
> >>>> case is probably better then the side effects we get from eagerly
> >>>> switching now.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Sorry, that is exactly the opposite: your use case is exceptional and I
> >>> believe is wrong. The normal use case is the one that does not ask the
> >>> user to track the current mode for knowing what any random driver would
> >>> eventually do depending on the calling context.
> >>
> >> You still miss the point that this is not required in 99% of the cases.
> >> There is no such problem. There only Analogy.
> >>
> >
> > I'm not discussing Analogy at all, those drivers are still biased by the
> > legacy 2.x logic for dealing with modes and need fixing. I have never
> > been convinced by the reasoning behind rtdm_in_rt_context(), which
> > perfectly illustrates why messing with the call mode is not the
> > application's business.
>
> You still need rtdm_in_rt_context() for the (rare) case of having the
> same handler for both service_rt and service_nrt. That didn't change
> with any switching strategy adjustment. It can't as long as there are
> services behind a syscall that may handle any mode, thus that syscall is
> unable to filter for the service in the background. We really need to
> differentiate here.
You do not need rtdm_in_rt_context. By writing a separate _rt and
_nrt driver you achieve exactly the same goal. If the the two
handlers share some code, put it in a common function. It has
always been a choice to use rtdm_in_rt_context. And not a very good
one in fact: you get potentially two instruction cache misses
instead of just one.
--
Gilles.
https://click-hack.org
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