>>> Samson Zondi 9/12/2009 5:12 PM >>> Dear Cde Trevor and others Aristotle (albeit I differ with him on many matters) once wrote that "the mark of an educated (hu)man is to entertain a thought without necessarily accepting it". Proceeding from this premise, I hope that you entertain Cde VC views without necessarily accepting it, if that is the case. However, I think that you should not differ for the sake of differing and even worse without offering a substantial argument beyond being guilty of the same (self-contradicting)charge that you level against Cde VC. By the way, calling a spade a spade is not tantamount to name-calling as you want us to believe unless you know more about these liberals and their agenda. (Oh! I almost forgot, the ANC is a multi-class organization that allows liberals to contest for space within it, so its possible that some amongst us have meet these liberals hence know more about them). At the risk of sounding like a high school English teacher (which am not given my own English limitations) but name-calling is verbal abuse that is usually employed when one looses the argument. And worse, some are misled that into believing calling a spade a spade amount to verbal abuse. Wrong! I re-iterate that you must re-read comrades VC's contention and come back to tell us where exactly are weaknesses in his argument rather than trying to patronize us with your membership which almost all of us have. To be honest with you my dear cde, the claim that "when all else fail...label people and personalize attacks. Why is it so difficult for you to attack or defend arguments?" is totally a tendency to opt for half-baked fabrications in the presence of facts and the 'culture' of contending on the basis of (neo-liberal)media constructed line of reasoning. Though I must admit that am not yet familiar with some of his stuff but reality is he clearly defends his arguments (at least in my own limited comprehension of matters). Remember that for someone to correctly comprehension one's understanding, there ought to be certain level of understanding of matters at least the basics (like I do with the latter). Beyond the above, as someone who is still in the learning curve, I think that my duty, amongst others, is to stop at nothing to defend our leaders especially the working class leadership. Of course noting that they are human beings as well who are not immune from both theoretical and practical human blunders. History is replete with instances wherein liberals' and DA darlings' (some of them within our structures and are identifiable by their view which are normally echoed by the reactionary minority parties like DA and Shikondala's) agenda would attack our leaders by projecting them as corrupt, possessing twisted 'moral's, womanizers, big spenders etc. The motive, inter alia, behind this agenda is clear: continuously rubbish the image of tried and tested leaders so that we- at the grass-roots level- will begin to loose trust in our leaders thus glorify them (liberals and "anarchist" both within and without) as more caring than our leaders (be warned: we are prepared to fearlessly fight this). I wonder if you are aware that the nature of the working class revolution or revolution/s (bourgeois included) for that matter "...is sometimes hidden...and open" hence not easy to frustrate. Thus, attacking the working class leadership becomes one of the easiest tool at the disposal of our enemies (some of them who use membership as a shield). Put differently, the tactic that becomes available to them is to attempt to assassinate the character of these leaders as is the case with GS. Hence the Defense of the GS is the equals the Defence of the Working Class Struggle! Cde Masuke correctly observes "the greatest enemy of the National Democratic Revolution is infact our own comrade...". To take this further, as a young person who aspires to be a communist, pre and post-Polokwane developments have taught me and those who care many lessons. Some of these lesson include what was also observed by O.R. (though in a sightly different context) that the biggest enemy of the NDR wear the same revolutionary t-shirts as us, sing the same songs and sometimes speak our revolutionary theory better than us. The Shilowas, Moleoketis are a classic example however these elements are still be found within the MDM as this forum confirms it. I am aware that its dangerous to claim that there are comrades who are more genuine than others but failure to give concrete analysis to concrete situations whilst patronizing us that "...am a member in good standing..." raises more un-answered questions. Having said all this, I think we must agree that criticism is welcomed albeit ours ought to be different from reformists masquerading as service delivery monitors and more concern about the working class than the latter itself . Ours ought to be constructive which means that before we even criticize, we need to objectively investigate the source of the problem (whether perceived or real) and the concrete conditions under which it emanated before we even posit a way forward. Failure to do this, comrade Trevor is tantamount to a half-cooked journalist (under pressure to get her/his story published) who attend congresses or a media just to merely to take notes about the form/trivial/controversial issues at the expense of the contend/resolutions taken. Before I pause let me remind comrades that Cde Chief Luthuli is said to have always warned comrades that they do not have to talk (write) for the sake of it since silence does not mean that they are less of a comrade lest they expose themselves (my emphasis). Lets observe the quote taken from Aristotle or else be silent. In struggle, T.S. Zondi Former-ukznpmb yclsa branch Chair and current kz221 ward3 ANC branch dept Sec. and ANCYL branch Secretary.
>>> Dominic Tweedie <[email protected]> 9/11/2009 10:20 AM >>> The Defence of the GS equals the Defence of the Working Class Struggle! Now, why are you repeating Bantu Holomisa's argument here, Trevor? Are you also threatening Cde Blade, like him? By the way, for your information and anybody else's information, this forum can be read by anybody and anybody can post to it, subject to moderation. The moderation policy is: no spam. That's all. So I don't know where this bourgeois thing comes from that says that the only public realm is the bourgeois public realm. On the contrary, Cde Trevor, we communists insist on being as public as we can be, and we constantly push the envelope that the bourgeoisie would wish to confine us in. So let's have no gagging here, please. VC Trevor wrote: A typical response from you 'Comrade' Dominic. When all else fails.......label people and personalise attacks. Why is it so difficult for you to attack or defend arguments? If you or the "Security Advisors" can prove that the BMW 750i can stop an AK47 bullet please do so. Your arguments have no substance. We are not debating this issue in the media. We are taking up the issue internally in the YCLSA forum, which is our right as members in good standing of the SACP according to the SACP Constitution. You have failed dismally in countering any of our arguments. As a senior member of the SACP, it time you show your maturity and set a good example to the youth that engage in this forum. You are doing a lot of good work like setting up this forum and the Communist University, but you tarnish the good work you do by behaving in this manner. Please try to be more mature in the manner in which you handle debates. Kind Regards, Trevor Joseph Mobile: +27 82 946 3877 Fax: +27 86 606 2130 Email: [email protected] From:[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dominic Tweedie Sent: 11 September 2009 08:40 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [YCLSA Discussion] Re: Fwd: [COSATU Press] COSATU says No to ministers' expensive cars Rosa Luxemburg, responding in 1900 (in "Reform or Revolution") to Eduard Bernstein's 1899 book "Evolutionary Socialism", wrote that Bernstein had done the world a favour, because not only had he for the first time openly made a virtue of class-collaboration, but he had also said everything that could possibly be said in its favour, which Luxemburg quickly disposed of. Subsequent history has proved Luxemburg correct about Bernstein, the prophet of reformism. In his "The State and Revolution", in 1917, Lenin also took Bernstein's renegade work as a reference point, but in addition remarked that the "opportunists" (that is the reformists; the class-collaborationists; the liberals) are the "twin brothers" of the "anarchists" (that is, the petty-bourgeois ultra-lefts). This, too has always proved to be the case, and is once again shown to be true in South Africa's new liberal/anarchist "car wars" brouhaha. Long before Lenin and Luxemburg, Karl Marx had noted that every bourgeois is ready to take up the cry for cheap government, while at the same time wanting to use the state to the maximum for tenders and contracts, and caring nothing for the hypocrisy of shouting for both of these contradictory demands at the same time. That has not changed, either. All of this can be clearly seen in the "car wars" episode. Some of our reformists on this forum, and no doubt the reformists in COSATU, as well, think that having legitimised the DA's liberal argument, and having thereby opened a Pandora's box, they can seize upon the last remaining pestilence - hope - and thereby wish away the ills that they have unleashed. But they will not be able to wish these ills away. Instead, this monster is going to grow, and it will overshadow all their other efforts in the bourgeois public realm, including the COSATU Congress as a whole, unless they are exceedingly lucky. And why should the DA let them have that luck? Our resident anarchist, Claire Ceruti, is also caught in a pact with the liberal DA devil, in exactly way that Lenin predicted for all such anarchists. "Too much!" she scolds, echoing the DA. Now it only remains for the DA to press the button again, and Ceruti is forced to support them again. Sure enough, the very next day, the DA does just that, and the bourgeois media amplifies the cry. Now there are letters, op-eds, and Zapiro, and dozens of reporters are out looking for new ways to denounce government expenditure of all kinds. For our reformists and anarchists there is no controllable end to this, comrades. They have made a tacit pact with the devil and they must now go on a devil's ride to hell. The right wing is not going to leave this alone. The end of the matter, as Rosa Luxemburg noted, is only one: revolution. Until then, there are two kinds of people in this political world. There are the falsely-moralising liberals and anarchists on the one side, and there are the communists on the other. As communists we are used to being told to apologise for existing. There has never been a time when we did not have this nonsense thrown at us. The people who have been most perceptive in this YCLSA discussion are Lucky Masuku and before him, Samson Zondi, who wrote: The Defense for the GS equals the Defense of the Working Class Struggle! That is correct, and it is vital that the defence of the working class struggle gets into gear now, and does not slacken again at any time between now and Christmas. May we be victorious again in Polokwane! Down with the opportunists and the anarchists! The struggle continues! VC LUCKY MASUKU wrote: Cadres You see, the manner in which some of us think leaves a lot to be desired, I honestly think that some of us are not either honest or objective when discussing this matter, in the first place you must really ask yourself as to how did this matter link into the media and beyond that wether the were any wrong doing by the department concern in purchasing the car. beforre you actually give names to our own senior leaders, for you information the minister does not buy any car rather the beaurocrats are the one responsible for that, and this is indeed done in line with the ministerial handbook, I think the department concern has clarified this issue as to the processes that unfolded. it must be noted that the department followed all the procedure in the of the PFMA in terms of ensuring that our communist leader is indeed safe, The recession did not at any stage thaught us that we must infact compromise the life of our leaders in the interest saving. the life of the state leaders in any countries are being put first hence they are provided with VIP security 24 hrs and their houses are also secured by VIP security, this is the responsibilty of every state in the world. it is strange that our own so called communist would have the problem when a department chooses to ensure that as per the guidelines of the ministerial handbook, its minister is provided with a safe and reliable car, that will ensure that he execute his duties without any technical problem from the vehicle, hence this cars are put a blue light. You see, the greatest enemy of the National Democratic Revolution is infact our own comrade, this comrade infact do not have any argument with regard to the car, infact they want to raise their own dissatisfaction of the SG being deployed by the ANC to the government and this are people who works day a night and try their best to destroy our own progressive cadres within the movement, The issue of the SG being deployed in governement its a Party issue and not for this forum, this cadres if they are members of the party and they have a problem with that, they must raise their dissatisfaction to their branches, rather try and deal with character assassination here, infact this cadres if they are indeed progressive cadres, they should have been discussing as to how best can we support the office of the SG in the COSATU House so as to ensure that the work of the party continues, for their iformation, that office has been thus far stregthen to merely deal with their concern. while we acknowledge that this is the constitutional matter but as communist, we would one day want to see the SACP leading the South African State, are we saying that when we reach that stage we must have two centred of powers, NO! i do not think so leaders, infact we were supposed to be proctecting the SG against this tendencies of the special type which has started again, because honestly that is not the SG car rather its a Government car. Amandla --- On Thu, 9/10/09, Mamphekgo,Steve (GPDPR) <[email protected]> ( mailto:[email protected] ) wrote: From: Mamphekgo,Steve (GPDPR) <[email protected]> ( mailto:[email protected] ) Subject: [YCLSA Discussion] Re: Fwd: [COSATU Press] COSATU says No to ministers' expensive cars To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, September 10, 2009, 12:44 PM Mxo, u r correct mchana. I think our comrades (Cabinet Ministers) must lead by example. There is no excuse for our own trusted comrades to fall into the bourgeoisie tendencies of fancy cars and lavish lifestyles, whilst our people are trapped in abject poverty. Comrades must just swallow their pride and take those cars back. COSATU is correct, whether the DA shares the same views or not, by making a public call for the return of the fancy cars. Comrades shouldn't have, in the first place, behaved in an unbecoming manner that will have most of our people sharing the same views with the reactionaries elements such as the DA. But we just can't condone these actions on the basis that we are afraid of finding ourselves sharing the same views with the DA. We know for the fact that ours, as progressive revolutionaries, is a principled matter we are raising, whilst the opposition is just being opportunistic as usual. But I blame our comrades for having allowed the DA and other reactionary forces space to make noise. Let them take back those cars, finish and klaar. We are not going to be black-mailed into defending the wrongs just because they were committed by our own comrades. As communists we are fighting against societal inequalities, we are fighting for a just world and ensuring that everybody meets his/her basic needs, not luxuries. Let the ministers also do with what is basic to necessitate them to execute their responsibilities. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] ( http://us.mc313.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] ) [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mxolisi Mlatha Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 9:08 AM To: [email protected] ( http://us.mc313.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] ) Subject: [YCLSA Discussion] Re: Fwd: [COSATU Press] COSATU says No to ministers' expensive cars Comrades The issue of cars has now become such a big public issue for Ministers. One cannot phathom the indiscretion on the part of some of our comrades who continue to order expensive cars. Let our comrades be brave and return the cars, we need to encourage modest expenditure. Mxolisi --- Sent from UnionMail Service [http://mail.union.org.za] Disclaimer: This message may contain confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the content of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. The Gauteng Provincial Government does not take responsibility for Gauteng Provincial Government users' personal views. Gauteng Provincial Government services available online at: www.gautengonline.gov.za ( http://www.gautengonline.gov.za/ ) Please find our Email Disclaimer here: http://www.ukzn.ac.za/disclaimer/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You are subscribed. This footer can help you. Please POST your comments to [email protected] or reply to this message. You can visit the group WEB SITE at http://groups.google.com/group/yclsa-eom-forum for different delivery options, pages, files and membership. To UNSUBSCRIBE, please email [email protected] . You don't have to put anything in the "Subject:" field. You don't have to put anything in the message part. All you have to do is to send an e-mail to this address (repeat): [email protected] . -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
