Ag chief grow up, the last time I checked there were no insults in that e-mail...
See I once read that there are ideological vendors of every discretion and well this is more than I expected from you. Why do comrades fail to understand Lenin's common language. Please point out insults. > > which can be viewed at http://www.eskom.co.za/email_legalnotice > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Oh please I am not the kind of a person who engage with people who > undermine others people intellectual capacity , I am rational and I don't > insult during debates . Sorry I don't think I will continue with you and I > don't even know whether to call you comrade or not . > > > > Thanks for the insults . > > > > > >>>> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> 2010/04/09 12:46 AM >>> > > Will you get sick if you read? > > > > If one had the honour to read my email or Jomo's you would have presented > yourself an opportunity to understand the line of march. > > > > You falsely accused us of lacking clarity, when yourself failed to possess > an iota of knowledge in regard to proletarian revolution. You are giving > us an uninformed lecture of the path to socialism. Your three > prerequisites for socialism are informed by common sense, which is the > enemy of the revolution. You read lots of newspapers to develop your > consciousness, hence you're caught up in the periphery. > > > > Are you implying that the South African working class are in the minority, > are you saying we as a country have less for our basic needs, are you > therefore suggesting that our revolutionary character is not > internationalised in nature. > > > > To me, you appear as someone who knows a little bid less about the social > systems and the path leading to any. The October Russian revolution was > never about communism, but the transition to communism. Socialism as a > transition to to communism do have some elements of capitalism and such > cannot be seen as a cause for the collapse of the Soviet Union. Refrain > from taking liberal history books as a source of knowledge and search the > marxist archives for authentic revolutionary information. > > > > History tells accurately so, that there was never an attempt for communism > in Russia, they infact succeeded in a revolution that brought socialism. > There are different types of democracies and by the way the original name > is dictatorship, socialism is not equal to socialism but however the are > many examples of countries that tasted socialism. The eastern blog of > Europe was socialist when the western blog was capitalist. This is enough > proof that socialism can be and was infact implemented in one country > independently. > > > > The fact that some within our ranks are more comfortable with bourgeois > democracy, gives them no right to distort the working class history. What > Stalin did has nothing to do with whether socialism can be achieved in one > country or not. > > > > Capitalism is not international but global. It is in one country > independently, that's why you find that some capitalists countries are > more developed than the others. Capitalism is the centre of boundaries and > it survives through dividing nations into stronger and weaker nations. > Globalism means it is found in different shapes and forms, throughout the > world when internationalism means sharing and paying solidarity to one > another. > > > > Making excuses for maintaining bourgeois democracy at the expense of > proletarian revolution will not ease your conscience. Representing the > enemy class will not make more revolutionary than the others but make you > more docile and easier to exploit economically. > > > > Lastly your reasons about whether socialism failed are not going to > convince anyone but confirm our suspicions. Your displayed hogwash as your > brief version of history, tell it to Terre' Blanche's kids or the likes of > Tutu, for they will at least entertain such bulder dash. > > > > In future, please avoid polluting discussions you have no knowledge of, > keep your pen in the pocket and join Njunju in insulting journos or > singing dubul' ibhunu. > > > > Hasta la victoria siempre, > > > > Avant Garde!!! > > > > Sent from my Nokia phone > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Thabang Ngcozela > > Sent: 08/04/2010 14:07:38 > > Subject: FW: [YCLSA Discussion] The Tripartite Alliance-going back to > basics; who must lead the Alliance? > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: [email protected] > >> To: [email protected] > >> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 23:09:11 +0000 > >> Subject: RE: [YCLSA Discussion] The Tripartite Alliance-going back to >> basics; who must lead the Alliance? > >> > >> > >> what i see here demonstrated by both cdes is lack of clarity that exist >> in everyone of us. It is important that we all strive for revolutionary >> clarity to better understand the revolutionary theory, marxisim. There >> is noone can claim to know it all, but we should listen atatively and >> hear what each other says if we are going to develop the required >> clarity. There are three prerequisites for socialism, first the working >> class must be a majority, secondly there should be more than we need of >> our basic needs, thirdly the revolutionary character should be >> internationalsed in nature. If these are facts did we have these in >> russia? It is a fact that communism was only attempted in russia and in >> real sense never existed. Lenin and the bolshevicks first implemented >> war communism but they have to change and brought back elements of >> capitalism because of different factors. When he died stalin took over >> and everything then went wrong from that point. Eg when the german ans >> british revolutions failed as the success of the russian revolution >> relied on them to succed the project for socialism in one country begin. >> I will not go now on the reasons why the revolution failed, but it is >> important to note that russia was very backward in industry working >> class was not in majority, civil war that took place after the october >> revolution where the most trained cdes died in big numbers as they were >> in the fore front of the red army, more than 18 countries participated >> in the civil in support of the white army in stoping the revolution from >> spreading to the world. stalin was then limited by conditions that >> exisited thus the only way out was to first eliminate all those were >> opposed to his party leadership. He murdered thousands of his cdes and >> sent others salt mines as slaves. he took cotrol of the party and all >> the private property was once again abolished. democracy stopped to >> exist and state became the only employer that subjected workers under >> very inhuman conditions and with no workers rights at all. State became >> the capitalist, thus state capitalism developed. Socialism is when the >> working class is in power, and under stalin workers were not in power. >> Communism its when there are no social classes and under stalinist >> russia the party beaurecrats enjoyed everything whilst the worker had to >> take orders from above. There was no decision making from below as >> workers were objectified and were no longer agents of change but >> subjects of production. Human rights were criminalised. There can be no >> socialism without democracy and there can be no socialism in one country >> since capitalism is an international phenomenon. But we must fight for >> it where we are at the same time in solidarity with the working class in >> other countries. Joe slovo said the soviet russia was socialism without >> democracy, but can be such? > >> Sent from my Nokia phone > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> Sent: 07/04/2010 11:34:22 pm > >> Subject: RE: [YCLSA Discussion] The Tripartite Alliance-going back to >> basics; who must lead the Alliance? > >> > >> Idealism seems to be finding its expression within our SACP, the >> vanguard party of the working class, whilst contemporary bourgeois >> ideology is a weapon used against the revolutionary class. > >> > >> Distorting marxist-leninist philosophy can not and shall never be viewed >> as progressive. It doesnot nothing but to hold back the proletarian >> revolution. > >> > >> Narrow interpretation of historical processes and erasing the history of >> USSR, will never succeed in swaying us towards accepting capitalism as >> the only alternative social system. > >> > >> Referring to workers struggle as a factory floor process is tantamount >> to a lobby strategy for eternal bourgeois dominance over the >> revolutionary class and that is also promoting anarcho syndicalism. You >> sound like someone who thinks workers are irrelevant in class struggle, > >> > >> Marxist philosophy outlines categorically clear, the importance of >> workers in a class struggle. If you were to apply marxist-leninist tools >> of analysis, you will then be better positioned to understand the >> inherent conflict between the two main classes. Is it not the communist >> manifesto that outlines categorically clear that communists do not have >> an interest of their own apart from that of the working class. > >> > >> Any revolution that ends up with the bourgeoisie as the ruling class can >> never be seen as progressive, and does not deserve a defence from the >> proletariat. The immediate programme of the working class is not to get >> intervention from the state at the work place but to overthrow >> capitalism. > >> > >> A society that has people who live partly or wholly from the work of >> others, has people who owns the means of production and live by >> exploiting the class that does not, has members of a class that owns no >> means of production and live by selling their capacity to work to >> members of a class that does, can never be reffered to as progressive >> and worth to be defended. > >> > >> Hasn't capitalism outlived its usefulness to the mass of the people, >> isn't this the basis of a crisis within the capitalist system which >> brought into existance a movement to change the social system to a new >> one. You necodimously want us to believe fallacy and agree with you that >> socialism cannot be achieved/build in one country independently as if >> the Bolshevik revolution is just a mythological question. > >> > >> Lenin in further developing Marxist philosophy through practice and also >> guided by material conditions, managed to overthrow bourgeois supremacy >> in one country. > >> > >> The biggest mistake that we as communists consistently make, is to >> confuse the consolidation of bourgeois supremacy with the part to >> socialism. If ours is indeed a Marxist-Leninist, then ours is to >> understand that the only path to socialism is through a socialist >> revolution, through overthrowing bourgeois supremacy. > >> > >> As to what led to the collapse of the Soviet Union is as a result of >> Stalinist bureaucracy, not because socialism was build in one country >> independently. If by chance you think there is a possibility of >> liquidating capitalism internationally at once, then keep on live a >> dream because material conditions do not allow such a possibility at >> this juncture. > >> > >> The interconnected class contradiction on the other side are of course a >> South African reality, and the resolve of such is but a responsibility >> of the proletarian party not a multi class organisation. Multi class >> character means tolerance of classes but not their equality. According >> to communists, the bourgeois or exploiting class does not have any right >> to exist. > >> > >> Remember Lenin understood Marxism better than you and I, hence our party >> is marxist-leninist. Revisit both the ABC of materialist dialectics and >> Marxist-Leninist in order to reconsider your uncommunist position. The >> leader of the alliance does not in anycase bother to think of socialism. > >> > >> Fear of undertaking one's revolutionary task is equal to submission to a >> defeat by the reactionary bourgeois class. In our epoch, the ANC is not >> the ruling class but a fragment of the state, the ruling class is the >> bourgeois class. Defeat for capitalism is not equal to defeat of the >> ANC, hoping this clarifies your confusion since you are unawarely caught >> in the mist of bourgeois propaganda. > >> > >> Socialismo o muerte!!! > >> > >> Hasta siempre commandante, > >> > >> Avant Garde!!! > >> Sent from my Nokia phone > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Ranney Segage > >> Sent: 07/04/2010 11:51:06 > >> Subject: RE: [YCLSA Discussion] The Tripartite Alliance-going back to >> basics; who must lead the Alliance? > >> > >> NB: This email and its contents are subject to the Eskom Holdings >> Limited EMAIL LEGAL NOTICE > >> > >> which can be viewed at http://www.eskom.co.za/email_legalnotice > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> Cde Vanguard > >> > >> > >> > >> The role of trade union is different from that of a party , the question >> of state power is a programme that should be carried by the party and >> the trade union shall have to assist the party in organising work place >> committees that will deal with workers issues at a factory level . That >> particular arrangement will have to be co ordinated with party cells on >> the ground so that where there is a need for state intervention , is >> will be easily co ordinated . Imagine a trade union contesting elections >> and it wins the election , it therefore suggest that the trade union >> will have to transform itself in to a political party .Workers must be >> members of the party in order to influence positions within the party ( >> Communist Party ) . The question two stages is a distortion of >> internationalism , the National Democratic Revolution has one stage , >> that of achieving National liberation and thereafter a socialist >> contraction ( class struggle) since under socialism there still exist >> classes until the total liquidation of capitalism .The question of >> permanent revolution is links to the internationalist view that seeks to >> liquidate capitalism at an international level , remember socialism >> cannot be build in one country but it is an international task. The >> moment a country is isolated , it cannot advance its complete socialist >> contraction . > >> > >> > >> > >> Yours for Socialism > >> > >> > >> > >> Ranney Jomo Segage > >> > >> Credit and Revenue Management > >> > >> Tel : 013 6934158 > >> > >> Fax : 013 6934186 > >> > >> Pax : 82214158 > >> > >> Cell : 0824710085 > >> > >> > >> > >> The denial of social contradictions leads to the denial of dialectics as >> a logical theory > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >>> "jerrymokoena" <[email protected]> 2010/04/07 10:35 AM >> >>> > >> > >> Cde VC > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Ours > >> Email truncated to 2,000 characters > >> > >> -- > >> You are subscribed. This footer can help you. > >> Please POST your comments to [email protected] or reply >> to this message. > >> You can visit the group WEB SITE at >> http://groups.google.com/group/yclsa-eom-forum for different delivery >> options, pages, files and membership. > >> To UNSUBSCRIBE, please email >> [email protected] . 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