Transmission is something to be experienced. It is not politics
and
not a ceremony. Similarly spirituality does not exist in the domain of
words. It is a "connection" beyond description, ideas and logic.
Anything written is called "formed Dharma", while "true Dharma" is not
limited to the spoken words or written words. True Dharma exists in
every moment, every incident, every existence. Formed Dharma is true
only relative to a particular moment and a particular dimension.
No formed Dharma is permanently valid. Be ware of our own thinking,
most of the time it is logic or word based.
If so, then it is no different than drunk, addict, etc. just
labels........... :-)
Edgar Owen wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
>
> Thanks for your response. First I wasn't intending to criticize
your
> views personally, I was simply discussing the issues, so don't
worry
> about that.
>
> I don't make the distinction you do between thoughts and emotions.
> Both just are, and as such are part of reality, both can be seen as
> what they are, veils of illusion, or the world can be experienced
> through them, from inside them, in which case the nature of things
is
> not clearly seen.
>
> Let me clarify a little. True as you say that sad is sad, sad just
is.
> That is not in question. The distinction I wanted to make is that
one
> can simply experience the emotion of sadness as passing by, or one
can
> become attached to it and have it color and distort one's whole
world
> view. That is the distinction, but the distinction is the same for
> thoughts as well. One can simply experience a thought passing by in
> the mind, or one can become attached to that thought and keep
adding
> thought after thought after thought to it so that one's mind is in
the
> thoughts rather than in the world, and the world is seen only
through
> the thoughts, not directly. Just as the emotion just is, so the
> original thought just was, and one can become attached to either
the
> thought or the emotion, or one can just experience them and let
them
> go. Same same.
>
> Glad you agree with the transmission paragraph. I've had some
really
> crazy arguments on that one, especially with those who have strong
> sect attachments.
>
> Best,
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2008, at 7:49 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]org
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]org>>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]org
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]org>>
wrote:
>
>> Edgar,
>>
>> Thank you for your post.
>>
>> I disagree with several points of the first paragraph of your
recent post
>> attached below.
>>
>> First of all I DO include intellect in the category of maya -
>> illusion/not
>> real. Intellect arises AFTER experience of reality, and
creates dualism
>> which then distorts and misrepresents all experiences. I DO
NOT, however,
>> believe emotions are illusory. They are real, they are
reality. They do
>> not distort experience. They are experience. Sad is sad. Happy
is happy.
>> This is not illusion. Sad just is. I do however agree with you
(in your
>> last two difficult but important sentences in that first
paragraph) that
>> both rationality (the product of intellect) and emotions need
to be taken
>> 'as is', and not given undo importance. They just are. They're
no big
>> deal, and certainly not the be-all and end-all of reality.
>>
>> Second of all I don't equate zen and satori. I define 'satori'
as a
>> 'small
>> or first breakthrough', a first glimpse of reality
unfiltered through
>> intellect. It is short-lived and temporary. I believe there is
more
>> to zen
>> then just that. I do include satori as part of zen, but
believe zen
>> practice starts before satori, continues on after satori as
>> cultivation and
>> complete integration of buddha mind into your life (or you
could say
>> becoming completely absorbed into buddha mind), and culminates
in the
>> realization that zen practice, satori, buddha mind, and
everything else
>> associated with this is all maya - illusion. There is after
all only
>> THIS!
>>
>> I do agree however with the second paragraph of your post
which correctly
>> calls me on my use of the word 'transmission'. I am
guilty of just
>> regurgitating popular, but inaccurate, terms used in
describing zen. As
>> you've pointed out there is nothing transmitted. There is only
a
>> realization or discovery. I agree with the all the rest of that
>> paragraph.
>>
>> Thanks...Bill!
>>
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]ps.com
>> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]ps.com
>> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>]
On Behalf
>> Of Edgar Owen
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:25 PM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]ps.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Zen] zazen
>>
>> Bill,
>>
>> Good post with which I'm pretty much in agreement. Zen, or
satori, is
>> certainly nothing above anyone's head as it is the natural
state of all
>> being. Satori is simply a matter of looking and seeing what is
actually
>> there right now unmediated by intellect or emotion - but that
is with a
>> caveat since one also must realize that intellect and emotions
are
>> part of
>> that reality. The trick is to see them for what they are
rather than
>> seeing
>> the world through them. In other words satori involves
recognizing that
>> illusion is part of reality, but seeing the illusion as
illusion
>> rather than
>> taking it for reality.
>>
>> I do have a little quibble with the notion of 'transmission'
however. In
>> reality enlightenment is never transmitted from a teacher to a
>> student. The
>> realization of the student is always entirely his own, the
teacher merely
>> directs his attention to that realization which he already had
but hadn't
>> yet realized. The only really legitimate use of the term
>> 'transmission' in
>> Zen is the transmission of the worldly authority to head a
sect or temple
>> from one head to the next, but that is politics not Zen.
>>
>> Edgar
>>
>> On Aug 12, 2008, at 11:01 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]org
>> <mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org>>
wrote:
>>
>> Sean,
>>
>> I think the fundamental meditation practices of both zen and
Vispassana
>> Buddhism are the same. There is a zen saying that when you're
meditating
>> and thoughts appear, you should treat them like you would
treat a visitor
>> knocking on your door while you are busy doing some important
task. You
>> should answer the door and acknowledge the visitor, tell him
that you are
>> busy right now but assure him that he is welcome to come back
later - but
>> above all, no matter how tempting, you DO NOT invite them in
for tea and
>> conversation.
>>
>> 'Non-verbal' transmission has to do with the way zen is
taught. It
>> especially concerns how the actual experience of Buddha Mind
is passed
>> between teacher and student. The basis for it comes from the
story of how
>> Siddhartha Buddha passed on his enlightenment to one of his
disciples
>> during
>> a teaching session at Vulture Peak. Instead of preaching to the
>> multitudes
>> assembled, Siddhartha only held up a flower. Mahakashyapa
smiled and
>> Siddhartha knew that he now understood. The point of the story
and
>> the term
>> is that experience of Buddha Mind cannot be transmitted via
words,
>> spoken or
>> written. The act of understanding words and the concepts they
represent
>> will not lead you to experiencing Buddha Mind. The actual
experience is
>> indescribable and any attempt to do so is not only
ineffectual, but
>> usually
>> misleading and can in fact be counterproductive.
>>
>> That leads me into the last sentence of your post. Zen is not
'ABOVE your
>> head', as some eclectic knowledge that you can't understand.
Zen in
>> fact is
>> very, very simple, so simple that it exists everywhere all the
time
>> unnoticed. Zen has nothing to do with your head at all, as in
your
>> intellect or any type of rational thinking. Zen is unfiltered,
>> unadulterated, direct and immediate experience of reality,
which can
>> only be
>> done in the ABSENCE of your intellect which creates all
dualism,
>> including
>> the concept of self. When you stop your intellectual
(rational) processes
>> you will lose your sense of self and all dualism. It is then
and only
>> then
>> that you will be able to experience Buddha Mind, which has
been there all
>> along hidden behind all the rational static. Zazen is the only
thing
>> I know
>> that can help you do that, although there are other techniques
such as
>> bowing or chanting that can reportedly bring you to the same
place.
>> IMNSHO,
>> I think all religions were initially established to bring you
to this
>> very
>> point. Unfortunately all religions I know of have lost sight
of that and
>> instead have fallen back to stress rules and rituals. This is
a good
>> example of the saying 'Can't see the forest for the trees.'
>>
>> Enough for now. Thanks for your post. Please respond and let
me know how
>> you see things. In the meantime, JUST SIT!
>>
>> ...Bill!
>>
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]ps.com
>> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]ps.com
>> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>]
On Behalf
>> Of Sean Lukens
>> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:32 AM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]ps.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: [Zen] zazen
>> Hi Bill,
>>
>> I agree with your description of the two practices. Yes, I do
>> differentiate
>> non-grasping and repressing or avoidance, although when I find
myself
>> avoiding something I will sometimes label it as such -
"avoidance" - and
>> then let go of that internal process.
>>
>> I am new to the conceptual practices of Zen, so ideas such as
"non-verbal
>> transmission" are still above my head. Maybe some things Zen
will
>> always be
>> "above my head." Thanks for your input.
>>
>> Sean
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]org <mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org>>
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]ps.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 10:53:17 PM
>> Subject: [Zen] Re: zazen
>> Sean, Sorry for the tardy reply, but I did not get your
posting via
>> email as I normally do. I logged into the site today and saw
your post.
>>
>> I am not an expert in Vipassana, but I do live in Thailand
where
>> Vipassana is widely practiced and have spent a short time at a
>> Vipassana training center and believe I do have some knowledge
of it
>> and its teachings.
>>
>> Your description of Vipassana meditation, '...sitting and not
grasping
>> any thoughts, emotions, experience, etc,...', is also
completely
>> applicable to zazen. I think it is important, however, to
emphasis
>> that 'not grasping' does not mean 'rejecting' or 'avoiding'.
'Not
>> grasping' means 'not holding onto', or 'not forming
attachments to'
>> thoughts, emotions, experience, etc...
>>
>> From my experiences and observations the major differences
between
>> Vispanna and zen are in the rites and rituals, rather than the
>> meditation. Also, as far as I can tell Vipassana does not
recognize
>> mind-to-mind (non-verbal) transmission which goes to the core
of zen
>> teaching.
>>
>> Hope this helps. Let me know what you thnk.
>>
>> ...Bill!
>>
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