Mike, I agree with you, but I don't think the overwhelming majority of Zen Buddhists would...Bill!
--- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Bill!, > > I think there is a good argument on both sides as to whether Zen Buddhism is > a > religion or not, but I think where Zen Buddhism differs from most religions > is > its exhortation that Buddhism itself must be dropped (carrying the raft > analogy) > before its ultimate conclusion can be realised. > > Mike > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Mon, 28 March, 2011 11:22:08 > Subject: [Zen] Re: Clues to the meaning of Zen > >  > Mayka, > > There is no religious connotations to TNH's "WAKE UP". Sounds like good pure > zen > advice to me. > > The real question should be 'where is the Buddhism in "WAKE UP?"'. There is > none, and that's why there is no religious connections. It's the Buddhism > cloak > wrapped around Zen Buddhism that makes it a relgion - in my opinion. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > > Another koan by TNH: > > à> > "WAKE UP" > > à> > Couldn't be more than zen than that.àWhere is the religion on it? > > à> > Mayka. > > > > --- On Sat, 26/3/11, Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Clues to the meaning of Zen > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Saturday, 26 March, 2011, 10:56 > > > > > > à> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill: > > à> > Zen Buddhism is not a religion but a way of living.àA different matter > > is if > >people make from that a religion.àAnd the same rule will be applied to > >those > >who make from zen a religion.àNo difference.ààà> > à> > My experience here is that if one will follow the instructions given can > >inmediately have an experience of the present moment.àThe present moment > >isàa > >most importantàkey and cores of zen.à> > > > à> > According to my personal experience in the TNH tradition which is Zen > > Buddhism > >this is the much easier and short cut to get into the wave of zen.àAs > >zen is > >presented in action over the 24 hours a day and not just by sitting down in > >the > >cushion.àTo me is a much easier way to disclose the insight of the sort > >of > >koans given in the TNH tradition such as "Present moment, wonderful > >moment"àor > >"mindfulness"àor "breathe you are alive"àrather than the complicated > >nonsense given by other zen traditions given oneàjust a headache.àThe > >ones > >given by TNHàawakes something in one. > > à> > All zen traditions including the Soto have the guides and teachings of the > >Buddha and sutras as a way to introduction and guidelines.àThough it's > >true > >that through practice and in time all that start to be discarded by > >itself.à> > > > à> > Mayka > > à> > à> > à> > --- On Sat, 26/3/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Clues to the meaning of Zen > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Saturday, 26 March, 2011, 1:10 > > > > > > à> > > > > > My comments are embedded in your list below. If I don't comment on > > something it means I agree: > > > > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Clues to the meaning of Zen > > > Because Zen is so hard to explain here are some quotations that may > > help > > > you get an idea of it: > > > > > > * The essence of Zen Buddhism is achieving enlightenment by seeing > > > one's original mind (or original nature) directly; without the > > > intervention of the intellect. > > > * Zen is big on intuitive understanding, on just 'getting it', and > > > not so hot on philosophising. > > > * Zen is concerned with what actually is rather than what we think or > > > feel about what is. > > > * Zen is concerned with things as they are, without trying to > > > interpret them. > > > * Zen points to something before thinking, before all your ideas. > > > * The key to Buddhahood in Zen is simply self-knowledge. > > > > [Bill!] I don't think 'knowledge' is a good choice of words. I'd > > substitute 'awareness'. > > > > > * To be a human being is to be a Buddha. Buddha nature is just > > > another name for human nature - true human nature. > > > > [Bill!] Buddha Nature applies to all sentient beings, not just humans. > > > > > * Zen is simply to be completely alive. > > > * Zen is short for Zen Buddhism. It is sometimes called a religion > > > and sometimes called a philosophy. Choose whichever term you prefer; > > it > > > simply doesn't matter. > > > > [Bill!] I definitely classify Zen Buddhism as a religion. All > > religions do have some philosophy in them. Just plain 'zen' however is > > not a religion or a philosphy. (See below) > > > > > * Zen is not a philosophy or a religion. > > > * Zen tries to free the mind from the slavery of words and the > > > constriction of logic. > > > > [Bill!] Zen doesn't 'try' to do anything. > > > > > * Zen in its essence is the art of seeing into the nature of one's > > > own being, and it points the way from bondage to freedom. > > > > [Bill!] I don't like the references to 'bondage' and 'freedom'. Zen is > > not a silver bullet-train to happiness. It is acceptance of life as-is. > > > * Zen is meditation. > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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