Thank you Bill for your reminder points here. Although there wasn't any valuation from the ones you mention at the time of writing posting, I appreciate you have pointed it out anyway as there is this very strong habit energy in me continuously arising in action in normal, ordinary life mixed up with all the ordinary things and people in life do with not much awareness applied and having as a result a continuous valuation, distinctions, judgement, discrimination between the pair of opposites.... Going Nowhere I have arrived home in the here and the now !. Mayka --- On Wed, 6/4/11, Bill! <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Bill! <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse To: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, 6 April, 2011, 15:57 Mayka, I don't want to make a big deal out of this. I think we're saying about 90% of the same thing anyway. Below you stated: "I can't see how acknowledging any sensation could be an illusion." I agree, depending on what you mean my 'acknowledging'. If you mean 'being aware of', then I agree that is not an illusion. If you mean 'evaluating or labeling' - like 'this sensation is good and that one is bad', then I don't agree. These are evaluations made by your descriminating mind and are illusory. There is a well-known zen story about an important Korean Zen Master describing this: "At the age of 33 Wonhyo tried two times to travel to China. First he crossed the Amnokgang River, but had to return unsuccessfully. The second time Wonhyo left for Dangjugye, in order to reach China by sea. On his way, one night Wonhyo had to stay in a pitch dark cave. Thirsty as he was he found what seemed to be a water containing bowl and drank it out thankfully. It was delicious and refreshing. Next morning, however, he realized that the water he drank was nothing but rotten rainwater gathered in a skull. So Wonhyo understood that nothing is clean or dirty itself and that all such things are created by mind. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@...> wrote: > > Bill: >  > I went there by observing and experiencing in myself what you said what it > looked like. This last post of yours might be correct in the way you > experience it. Still it doesn't take away the way myself experience which > is felt as description given about in previous post. It's in the form of > my body and mind that that is felt in that way, including what you > denominate illusions. I can't see how acknowledging any sensation could be > an illusion.  The names given are given accordingly with what arise > felts. My post states very clear the non attachement or entanglement into > that.  >  > Mayka >  >  > --- On Wed, 6/4/11, Bill! <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse > To: [email protected] > Date: Wednesday, 6 April, 2011, 1:45 > > >  > > > > Mayka, > > I don't know how you got to where you are in this post from reading my last > post. > > I never said physical sensations were not real. They are. They are the ONLY > thing that is real. However, the judging of those sensations to be > pleasant/unpleasant, good/bad, dualistic/non-dualistic are created by your > discriminating mind and are not in and of themselves 'real'. They are > illusions. They come and go. Physical sensations (sight, hearing, touch, > smell, taste - the 5 categories (illusory concepts) which our discriminating > mind has created to describe these sensation) are trying to describe > something real that does not come and go - that is the ability to be aware of > them does not come and go. That awareness is Buddha Mind. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill: > > > >  > > By the time you'll be receiving this mail you're tea will be cold. > >  > >  If somebody beat a finger with a hammer. Will the pain felt be real?. > > And the answer is yes. Although the pain will be an impermanent pain still > > will be real. > >  > > The different physical and mental states in the body and the mind. That > > switching waves coming and going as the waves of the ocean bringing all the > > rainbow of duality with them. The arising of different sensations > > such as pleasant , unpleasant or neutral, in all the game of > > distinctions, duality are felt as real in the realm of the form. What > > is illusion to me here is not as much the many arising sensations in > > themselves, but to exchange all that occurring as permanent having as a > > result mental attachment to what is happening and mental entanglement as > > one identifies with it as something permanent happening to > > one. Forgetfulness about that everything is impermanent can be > > a cause of great illusion arising in one.  The many sensations are > > real but not their duration as they dissolve by themselves through > > mindfulness or awareness. > >  > > To me here the real massive illusion is to exchange impermanence as > > something permanent but not as much the coming and going occurring in > > the form. > >  > > I imagine the form of body and mind with all its > > sophisticated implications as the waves of the ocean. In it's coming > > and going, continuously born and continuously dying, they all have in > > common the water. They're all made of the same.  Water is the > > nature of the wave in the ocean. But for that matter of that seconds > > the water takes the form of an impermanent high, low... wave. Is the > > form of the wave an illusion?...It all depends under what kind of > > perspective is seen. > >  > > Mayka > > > > --- On Tue, 5/4/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Tuesday, 5 April, 2011, 1:13 > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Bill! expounds... > > > > This is not a matter of non-duality/duality, it's a matter of awareness. > > Duality is an illusion - probably the Mother of All Illusions. The concept > > of non-duality is also an illusion. > > > > Illusions come and go. This might be the 'switching back and forth' you are > > talking about. > > > > Awareness (Buddha Nature) is persistent. > > > > This is a matter of how illusions are accomodated. If you become attached > > to the illusions of non-dualism/dualism then they come and go, but are > > mutually exclusive. If you are not attached to these illusions (or any > > illusions) they come and go, but are universally inclusive. > > > > That's the best I can do this morning before my first cup of tea...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not > > > necessarily or usually ongoing.) > > > > [siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is > > > making the switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen > > > until it happens. And when it happens, nobody can switch it back. > > > > > > > > > siska, > > > > > > After adequate Zen or other practice, I think that an experience of the > > > non-dual mind-state switches back and forth, without the individual's > > > choice - like is the casse in some optical illusions: > > > > > > http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sou\ > > > rce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540 > > > <http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&so\ > > > urce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540> > > > . > > > > > > With more practice, the mind may prefer the non-dual state over the > > > dualistic state. Possibly for a few, the non-dual state will become > > > ongoing after sufficient Zen or other practice. > > > > > > I repeat: Bill would be a better person to expound on this issue. > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > > > > The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception. > > > > [siska] don't really get why it is a conception > > > > > > > > The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we > > > experience reality non-dually or dualistically respectively.[siska] > > > agree with you > > > > > > > > Most humans experience reality dualistically, > > > > [siska] agree with you > > > > > > > > until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not > > > necessarily or usually ongoing.) > > > > [siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is > > > making the switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen > > > until it happens. And when it happens, nobody can switch it back. > > > > > > > > siska > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi siska, > > > > > > > > The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception. > > > > > > > > The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we > > > > experience reality non-dually or dualistically respectively. > > > > > > > > Most humans experience reality dualistically, until they succeed in > > > > making the switch (which of course is not necessarily or usually > > > > ongoing.) > > > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > > > > > > I was about to ask your views on non-dualism, but I am guessing your > > > > view is represented by the article here and in your other post. And I > > > > agree with what is being said here. > > > > > > > > > > The other article was fine too, in terms of putting non-dualism and > > > > zen into words. My view is that non-dualism is here and now (as in > > > > Hakuin's song), instead of some destination point, which you seemed to > > > > imply in your previous post. > > > > > > > > > > siska > > > > > > > > > > > Hi siska, > > > > > > > > > > You may want to ask Bill, Mike, Steve and Mayka their views on Zen > > > and > > > > > non-dualism. > > > > > > > > > > --ED > > > > > >
