Another GREAT POST! ...and it is pretty much in line with the response I just posted: 'Words aren't the best way to express zen, but if they're all you got you've got to try your best'.
...Bill! --- In [email protected], "Bill Smart" <Bill@...> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], JWMeritt@A... wrote: > > On 7/28/05, Bill Smart <Bill@b...> wrote: > > > ...preceeding text clipped... > > > > > > > Words are everything. > > > > > > If 'words are everything', why is the very essence of zen, that > > > which differentiates it from other forms of Buddhism, > attributed to > > > the wordless, non-verbal, mind-to-mind transmission between the > > > historical Buddha Sakyamuni and the first patriarch Mahakasyapa? > > > Why wasn't this transmission done via a lecture, or better yet in > > > the form of writing? > > > > Like this mailing list? You may have noticed that THIS is > 100% 'words'. Which are used to build ideas. Are you maintaining > that this list is of no value? If so, why are YOU using it. Your > actions indicate other than the content of your words. I am > bothered by that apparent contradiction. Please help me clarify > things. > > > > Jim > Jim, Thanks for your post. I think I recognize your name. I > believe we have corresponded through other zen discussion groups. > > The portion of my post above that you excerpted needs to be taken in > the context of the whole message thread. From my perspective the > thread started out as a discussion primarily between Normal Milk > (NM) and me about the relative values of dharma study and zazen in > our personal zen practices. At the point of the quoted posting the > thread had degenerated into a debate about the value of words in > zen. During the evolution of the thread and from evidence in other > threads I have come to believe that NM places a very high value on > words and their fellow-travelers (logic, rationality, understanding, > intellect, etc ). I don't. The posting above was my rhetorical > attempt to bring NM's attention to the intentional AVOIDENCE of the > use of words to accomplish the defining act of zen mind-to-mind > transmission. As I said, this is quick recap of the thread from my > perspective. NM might have a completely different view of what the > thread is about and how it evolved. > > Now, to your posting: > > >Like this mailing list? > No, not like this mailing list. This mailing list is not (to my > knowledge) used as an object of Buddhist dharma study. > > >You may have noticed that THIS is 100% 'words'. > Actually I hadn't noticed, and haven't even seen the mailing list. > I believe your assertion however, even though I'm sure that this > mailing list contains more than words: spaces, punctuation marks, > control characters, etc.., but that is of no consequence here. I > believe it's there somewhere. I have figured out how to use it, and > that's all I need to know about it right now. It's a useful tool. > I don't need to understand it, memorize it, chant it, etc , to be > able to use it to communicate with the e-sangha it represents and to > which it points. > > >Which are used to build ideas. > This is actually what I think is the bone of contention. Like > words, I don't value ideas in the context of zen very much. Ideas > are logical constructs. There the results of trying to rationalize > something. Trying to understand. Trying to stuff something real > and amorphous into a neat, little, defined box. Trying to fence > something in with logic. This is useful in doing things like > building a space shuttle, but it is not as useful in zen practice > at least to me. > > >Are you maintaining that this list is of no value? > I am not maintaining that words have NO value. I obviously use > them, and even use them when discussing zen especially when I'm > using a medium like this that's text-based and only accommodates > words. I'm stating that in my personal experience the value of > words are at best overrated, and at worst an impediment to zen > practice especially in the beginning. > > >If so, why are YOU using it. Your actions indicate other than the > content of your words. > I use words as one way to communicate. I use words to understand. > I use words to classify, discriminate and structure thoughts. I > don't think they have no value. I do think they need to be used, > like any tool, in the right situation and the right time. It's the > inverse of the old `if all you have is a hammer, everything looks > like a nail' idiom. Why place so much importance on words when you > have so many other, better tools at your disposal like zazen? > > >I am bothered by that apparent contradiction. > I doubt very seriously if you're bothered at all at my `apparent > contradiction'. If, however, you are bothered by contradictions > you're in for a very bothersome life. > > >Please help me clarify things. > I can't help you clarify things. You'll have to clarify things > yourself; or you'll have to clarify your self. > > I recommend zazen. Others may recommend dharma study, intellectual > pursuits, understanding and words. The method doesn't really > matter. It's up to you. Knock your self out (pun intended). > > Bill! > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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