Bill I would agree, Sufism, Zen, The Way, Great Spirit, etc . . . all signs pointing to esoteric experiential state of no state. It defies codification, description, religious or otherwise.
However, I am practical enough, and Traditionalist enough to realize that most people need the exoteric framework, they need the labrynth, the monolith of historical and social context to impart . . . shall we say the beginnings of religious values (sacred) but the internal esoteric is the key . . . unfortunately I don't know how in a collective sense to eradicate in a larger context the need to exoteric, religious or otherwise. Zazen is taught, and learned from a teacher and found in the experiential . . . the question is, and no way of answering truly, would zazen exist without the Tradition of Zen Buddhism? On an individual level you could answer one way or the other, but on the social level, which feeds the individual as if from a hive, or a nest, well then that is another matter. best wishes Kirk --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > Salik888, > > This is almost word-for-word what I say about zen - that it is not a part of > Buddhism but that Buddhism is just a Buddhist expression of zen. > > One big difference is I don't believe zen is a religion - at least not by any > definition of religion I've heard. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], "salik888" <novelidea8@> wrote: > > > > (Osho - The Secret #1) > > There are religions and religions, but Sufism is THE religion - the very > > heart, the innermost core, the very soul. > > > > Sufism is not part of Islam; rather, on the contrary, Islam is part of > > Sufism. Sufism existed before Mohammed ever was born, and Sufism will exist > > when Mohammed is completely forgotten. Islams come and go; religions take > > form and dissolve; Sufism abides, continues, because it is not a dogma. It > > is the very heart of being religious. > > > > You may not ever have heard of Sufism and you may be a Sufi - if you are > > religious. Krishna is a Sufi, and Christ too; Mahavir is a Sufi, and Buddha > > too - and they never heard about the word, and they never knew that > > anything like Sufism exists. > > > > Whenever a religion is alive, it is because Sufism is alive within it. > > Whenever a religion is dead, it shows only that the spirit, the Sufi > > spirit, has left it. Now there is only a corpse, howsoever decorated - in > > philosophy, metaphysics, in dogmas, doctrines - but whenever Sufism has > > left, religion stinks of death. This has happened many times. This is > > happening already almost all over the world. One has to be aware of it, > > otherwise one can go on clinging to a dead corpse. > > > > gasho > > > > zendervish > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
