One say black and white make grey
One says white and black
There's only grey
KG
On 9/5/2012 7:01 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
Bill! and Merle,
I don't understand what Bill! means when he says "MY mind is closed in
HIS structure."
And my theory of reality is not "a closed structure" because it
includes everything that exists including illusion. It's Bill!'s
theory that is closed and dualistic because it excludes illusion as
part of reality... Thus it imposes boundaries that do not actually
exist...
Edgar
On Sep 5, 2012, at 1:05 AM, Merle Lester wrote:
i understand what edgar is saying..are you suggesting he is in
error?... merle
Merle,
It's Edgar that has the 'closed mind'. It's been closed in my
structure. It might be a very big and seemingly comprehensive
structure, but it's a closed boundary nonetheless.
Edgar,
You stated something very wrong in your reply to KG:
"...Everyone certainly models reality differently each in their own
internal simulations of it. But in a deeper sense there is no reality
except as it is experienced by some observer or other.... This is a
complex subject that requires a deep understanding and more time than
I have right now...
Your errors (IMO) are two:
One is ..."that there is no reality except as it is experienced by
some observer or other..." What you are talking about here is not
reality, it is a PERCEPTION of reality. Pure experience of reality
(Buddha Nature) is not dualistic. There is no subject/object pair
created.
The second is "...This is a complex subject that requires a deep
understanding and more time than I have right now..." Direct
experience of reality is NOT complex. It is the most simple thing you
can do. You just have to quit THINKING about it. It's the THINKING
that's complex, not the experience. 'Understanding' is not the key.
EXPERIENCING is the key and it doesn't require a lot of time to do.
EXPERIENCE is immediate and very, very simple.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> Â some folk have closed minds edgar...you need a sledge hammer to
break through..a stick would not do...merle
>
>
> Â
> Kristopher,
>
> Well yes and no... Maybe... Everyone certainly models reality
differently each in their own internal simulations of it. But in a
deeper sense there is no reality except as it is experienced by some
observer or other.... This is a complex subject that requires a deep
understanding and more time than I have right now...
>
>
> Kristopher is obviously someone who has endured much pain and
suffering in his life and made considerable strides in transcending
that by approaching Zen....
>
> However, if I may respectfully say so, I detect a hint of a
particular attitude towards Zen characterized by a sort of Nihilism,
hopelessness and a feeling of meaninglessness in everything which
really isn't Zen.
>
> Please don't take this as a criticism, God knows none of us is
perfect, but my feeling is that since we are all on the path we do
each other a favor by pointing out how we might each do better and
that we should all be free and open in exchanging and receiving such
insights.
>
> Merle especially seems open to this. She's a great example for us
all in that respect and we should all take her lead on this..
>
>
> Zen is not meaningless, hopeless, or Nihilistic. On the contrary by
directly realizing and experiencing the ultimate absolute reality of
all things really really here right now in the present moment it can
be said to reveal the ultimate MEANINGFULNESS of things, and thus of
the seeker...
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 4, 2012, at 10:26 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote:
>
> Â
> >
> >
> >OK. Then there is no Bill! standing apart from Buddha nature. Not
the Bill! who posts here, and not the Bill! who lives as a logical
construct in your head. If you think these Bill!s are the same, you
will logically think Bill! to be illogical. You will see what you
think is Bill!'s error. If you think them apart, you make the same
error for him.
> >
> >It's only easy to be right about the image you have of him, no
> other can be known. There is no difference.
> >
> >Same goes for 'Zen'
> >
> >KG
> >
> >
> >
> >On 9/4/2012 8:56 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> >
> >Â
> >>Bill!,
> >>
> >>Bill! claims logic is NOT Zen...
> >>
> >>Bill! says he uses logic in his daily life...
> >>
> >>Therefore Bill must believe he CANNOT have Zen in his
> daily life...
> >>
> >>This is a serious error...
> >>
> >>Zen is 24/7 whether one is using logic or sitting
> mindlessly.
> >>
> >>It is a fundamental error to believe only mindless sitting
> is Zen. That's mistaking a particular meditative state for
> Zen.
> >>
> >>There is no part of reality that is not Buddha Nature.
> Illusion is part of reality and thus is a manifestation of
> Buddha Nature.
> >>
> >>Realization is seeing the illusion that is part of reality
> as illusion rather than the fake reality it pretends to
> be....
> >>
> >>When Bill! understands that logic is part of reality and
> thus like everything else is a form manifesting Buddha
> Nature rather than something contrary to and apart from
> Buddha Nature, then and only then will Bill! allow himself
> to completely realize Zen in his daily life as well as
> when he is sitting mindlessly...
> >>
> >>This is the crux of Bill!'s misunderstanding.... At the
> most fundamental level he dualistically divides reality
> into illusion and Buddha nature without realizing that
> even illusion is a manifestation of Buddha Nature because
> there is nothing that is not Buddha Nature... The world of
> forms does NOT stand apart from Buddha Nature. The world
> of forms is a direct manifestation OF Buddha Nature.
> >>
> >>Zen does not try to dismiss the world of forms; Zen is
> seeing the Buddha Nature that is manifested in the world
> of forms... It is seeing the world of forms AS Buddha
> Nature...
> >>
> >>Only when this becomes clear can realization occur....
> >>
> >>Edgar
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
