Bill, Gosh Bill, I was going to jump but then I saw the splat when you hit the ground!
The other ghosts tell me you now finally understand my teachings on the reality of the world of forms! :-) Edgar On Nov 30, 2012, at 8:02 PM, Bill! wrote: > Joe, > > I've long since given up trying to coax Edgar to take the leap off the 100-ft > pole. He is clinging to it with a vise-like grip of rationality. > > The only reason I continue to 'spar' with him is to prevent him from > completely blocking others from climbing the poll by smearing it with his > slippery drips of logic and smears of understanding. > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote: > > > > Edgar, Bill!, > > > > That's true in zazen, as you say. > > > > It's in AWAKENING, however, where Zen begins, and where the formless is > > actually experienced. This is the heart of zen and the central experience > > of zen practice. You must carry the practice at least as far as this to > > have the hope of the ghost of a prayer of communicating with others about > > it. I know you deny having experienced this but you are the exception, > > here; the others here I'm sure would love it if you knew what you were > > talking about. Don't you see that your head is a monkey-wrench in the > > works? And that's the only function you serve. You belong in Skeptics > > Anonymous, or on a Philosophy board, not here. In this regard, your > > delusions about Zen really do extend to delusions of adequacy, which is a > > pity and a pitiful sight. You bring reason, and no experience. Puffery! > > It's like trying to substitute something for Love, something for which > > there is no substitute. But in this case, reason and ideas cover the > > experience of emptiness for you. And that's self- and other- defeating. > > There is no Bodhisattva-work in YOUR career! You have to get on with > > things, by dropping everything. After awakening, and within awakening, pick > > up, freshly, what's important; one inevitably does this. That is called > > "Skilful Means", and the development of skilful means. It's simple, and it > > s natural. It is not done by reason, ever. > > > > End of lecture! > > > > You won't find it here. > > > > I know you agree! ;-) > > > > And for the wrong "reasons"; perfectly typical, again. You have no "known" > > way out of the straight-jacket. > > > > For some patients, the only cure for them is to let them OUT of the jacket. > > That is my only prescription for you. I say you don't BELONG locked-up. > > Your self-imposed imprisonment is the only thing that has MADE you crazy, > > and which is keeping you that way. But in your padded cell, with arms > > immobilized, you do the MOST harm to others. Thus, it is our duty to urge > > you to "Wake Up"! > > > > Bill!, ...no one can say we're not pushing against an unmovable illusion > > keeping this fellow from taking a step from the Hundred Foot Pole! But no > > one can remove the stumbling block for him, up there. That's why Zen > > practice, and Awakening, is a personal thing, which must be experienced: > > it's not book-l'arnin', nor grinding the gears of ratiocination. It cannot > > be appreciated from the outside. And it is un-imaginable. > > > > The comic-book-phase has never ended for you, Edgar. It's only morphed to > > "illustrated novels". Yes, it's what the Market can push, now. But it's not > > for you. > > > > Sorry, Edgar, but all True. > > > > Take a look; Get a clue. > > > > --Joe > > > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > It is impossible to directly experience the formless because it has no > > > characteristics whatsoever. In zazen one only experiences the RELATIVELY > > > formless with fewer forms arising. It's an illusion to claim that's > > > absolute formlessness. It's a Zen cliche which simply isn't true. > > > >
