Suresh,
The Buddha was "the" Buddha, yes; and he taught in various distinct ways over
his teaching career.
Tha Arahat is one paradigm and paragon of awakening. The Bodhisattva is
another.
In the Bodhisattva's case, the role of the awakened person as it is emphasized
in the Buddhadharma is to save others by awakening them.
Thus the Bodhisattva has perhaps considerably more contact with the ways and
wiles of the world, and correspondingly less familiarity with the jungle, as
the Theravadins in Sri Lanka. In the world, one meets many more people than in
the jungle, and, in the marketplace there are many influences which might make
the mind move.
But the Bodhisattva continues practice and can usually remain awake. And it has
been noted that it is rather the exception that a Bodhisattva does not undergo
SEVERAL awakenings in a lifetime. That this is possible (and actual) should
show you that not everyone's case is the same as Shakyamuni's, who is reputed
to have awakened once and only once.
But we shall never know, and this is good. It is not Shakyamuni's awakening
which interests us!
You're right that my lifetime experience so far with Zen practice and in zen
practice circles has colored my approach to practice as well as my appreciation
of the Buddhadharma.
Note, too, that in a Zen discussion group, this is the material we discuss.
By the way, in the Zen sect, a very common expression is that Buddha "himself"
is still practicing somewhere. In other words, even Shakyamuni Buddha's work
is not done.
Thus, it was not done while he was alive, either.
Please, please, keep in mind that utterances in and within the Zen sect are not
meant to criticize nor to compliment: they are meant to spur us to action,
specifically, to practice, in order to awaken.
We do not put "The Buddha" on a pedestal! (...although we place a statue of a
buddha on the altar in order to exemplify the perfected POSTURE of equanimous
Samadhi)
In fact, we say, "If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha!"
In the Zen sect, words are goads, not gods. They are used compassionately, and
spring from wisdom.
Recognize, please, that holding a reverence for the Buddha, or for the
singularity and "uniqueness" of Buddha, is in fact an obstruction to practice.
WHOSE practice? Our practice. YOUR practice. That is the ONLY practice which
matters! The Buddha does not enter into it.
In the Zen sect, the Buddha is likened to ...sorry... the Buddha is likened to
"...a dried shit-wiping stick".
Some would say, not even dried.
The harm done by ignorant and mechanical reverence for the Buddha is the same
as the harm done among people who "revere" Einstein: they suppose that only a
"genius" can understand Nature, or penetrate the traces left by Einstein, and
so they do not themselves "dare" approach the material he worked on. What a
terrible loss! A crime!
A sincere student or working scientist knows that this is adolescent nonsense,
and that all one need do is to BEGIN, and to continue!
It is the same with Practice, Suresh. And whether you have been "at" it for a
long time or for a short time, practiced is never finished. Awakening is a
beginning.
If you are comforted by an outlook of real job-security, this is a bright
prospect for the career of a Bodhisattva! ;-)
Best,
--Joe
PS By the way, please don't call my post an "argument". It is not. I usually
only write from my perspective and experience, and I don't reason things out,
nor attempt to arouse conviction in anyone. Only experience can instill
conviction.
> SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote:
>
> Dear Joe,
>
> I agree to your argument to some extent, but still I have doubts.
>
> Joe: In the awakened state, karma and free will are moot, and do not
> operate. Yet, if we slide backward from the awakened state, and fall
> into delusion even a bit, karma (our previous conditioning,
> mind-habits, and the past and future results of these) will again
> influence us, and we will find that our behavior is not in accord with
> the Precepts any longer. - One must still practice in order to remain
> awake.
>
> Suresh: Buddha himself states that Siddhartha was died long time back
> and no one had noticed it. It means in the moment of awakening to
> Buddhahood, the Siddhartha died, again it means his mind is totally
> died and never to born. In your statement you state that the awakened
> one can fall back if he doesn't practice. If one can fall back means
> he is not an enlightened one. A Buddha cannot fall back.
>
> Ramana Maharishi states that a guru is person who continuously abides
> in self, no one and no situation can change his state of being one
> with self.
>
> It looks like you are talking about your state; you seem deluded in
> your misunderstanding of Buddhahood. You are not open. You are glued
> to zen and feel superior over others in this forum since you have long
> practice of zen. This long practice itself seems hindrance to be fully
> awakened as Buddha. It is the problem of following something.
> J.Krishnamurti states that divine is pathless land.
>
> So my dear Joe, please be alert from your zen practice.
>
> Joe: But, now, free will is not "real", as karma is not "real".
>
> Suresh: Please note free will is not real. But' karma' is real. Karma
> is real as long as you consider yourself as body. Even if you see
> yourself as pure consciousness / self / Buddhahood, the body born to
> be you will follow karma until its destruction.
>
> Hence Buddha also not exempted from karma. And hence once in Buddha
> life, a person came and spitted on his face. This action to his body,
> he himself states that it is due to his past karma. So even a Buddha
> is not spared from karma. So Karma is real.
>
> Since Karma is real, there is no `free will'. All our actions are
> influenced, if you consciously watch your actions you will know. As
> long as you are influenced by any force you are not a Buddha. Not even
> the urge of brushing your teeth.
>
> Ramana Maharishi sat motionless for nearly 1.5 years. He was shifted
> by people surrounded and people who were wondering about him. He will
> not even take food kept in front of him, someone had to pour some milk
> in his mouth by force. It was by his devotees' effort he lived up to
> 72 years. But himself he did not desired to continue his bodily life.
>
> Again even in Ramana's life there were incidents of thieves attacking
> him, but again it is due to Karma, so even Sri.Ramana is not spared
> from Karma. So Karma is real and free will is illusion.
------------------------------------
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