the koan..is it not the eureka moment?..merle Edgar,
I agree with Joe here. All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to "BRING me Mu" and "SHOW me Mu" - certainly not "explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means". In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content. This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at one time. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote: > > Edgar, > > If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. > > Anyone who passes the koan "What is the sound of One Hand?", makes a > demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all > hung up about? > > Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a few, my > teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. Either, "no > need", or "no aptitude". > > From my point of view, after a point, it was: > > "No need for gumdrops along the way". > > Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. > > I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. > > Hail! > > I'm lucky to have had such a teacher. May you be lucky in this way, in some > life. > > --Joe > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > Joe, > > > > The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively snipped is > > this > > > > Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed to believe > > in as an orthodox zennist. > > > > You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be discarded in a > > satori. > > > > But instead your post claimed that you not only understood the sound of one > > hand but could produce it yourself. > > > > Thus you don't even understand the naive view of koans Bill does... > > > > You are not supposed to take the koan to heart as if it actually expressed > > something but to discard it... > > > > Even Bill knows that... >
