Bill, Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature.
But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no longer relevant.... One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself. Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all koans. > And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some other action > or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 'convince' your > teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain his/her verification > that you have passed the koan. > > After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some > rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was > specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to prepare > you for becoming a teacher. > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha > > Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to > > anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature. > > > > But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that > > realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan.... even in its > > seemingly most insignificant aspect... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > I agree with Joe here. > > > > > > All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically > > > designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a > > > demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was > > > Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to "BRING me Mu" and "SHOW me Mu" > > > - certainly not "explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means". > > > > > > In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there > > > is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although > > > these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is > > > specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the > > > meaning of the actual content. > > > > > > This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two > > > different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from > > > the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship > > > at one time. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. > > > > > > > > Anyone who passes the koan "What is the sound of One Hand?", makes a > > > > demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you > > > > all hung up about? > > > > > > > > Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a > > > > few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. > > > > Either, "no need", or "no aptitude". > > > > > > > > From my point of view, after a point, it was: > > > > > > > > "No need for gumdrops along the way". > > > > > > > > Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. > > > > > > > > I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. > > > > > > > > Hail! > > > > > > > > I'm lucky to have had such a teacher. May you be lucky in this way, in > > > > some life. > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > > > The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively > > > > > snipped is this > > > > > > > > > > Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed to > > > > > believe in as an orthodox zennist. > > > > > > > > > > You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be > > > > > discarded in a satori. > > > > > > > > > > But instead your post claimed that you not only understood the sound > > > > > of one hand but could produce it yourself. > > > > > > > > > > Thus you don't even understand the naive view of koans Bill does... > > > > > > > > > > You are not supposed to take the koan to heart as if it actually > > > > > expressed something but to discard it... > > > > > > > > > > Even Bill knows that... > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
