On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:16:12 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> G: > > If Bahais can make "seal" mean something other than last, then you should be > able to find ways of understanding the Quran in ways which are consistent > with fair, just compassionate treatment of women. > J: > > Gilberto, this is an interesting statement. I have a couple of comments: > > 1) Do you think we are making 'seal' mean something other than last to > *justify* Baha'u'llah? The fact is that Baha'u'llah stands on His own > merits and does need the Qur'an's interpretation for validation. In some ways, I think so. I wouldn't say that to a Buddhist or a Hindu or a Taoist or a Rastafarian because they are more or less silent about the Quran. But that Bahai faith actually says that it believes in Muhammad as a person sent from God, a Manifestation, and it actually say that the Quran is the absolutely authentic word of God. So if the Quran has a sentence in it which contradicts satatments in the Bahai faith then that is a problem (for the Bahai faith). For the Bahai faith, everything in the Quran is true, so whatever interpretation the verses have, they have to be consistent with the Bahai faith. Christians have a similar relation to the Jewish scriptures. This is because the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible. On the > Baha'u'llah would still be Baha'u'llah even if He failed to meet *all* the > prophecies of the Qur'an, for it would be a test for the people. If there are clear prophecies in the Quran, and we could agree to how to interpret those prophecies, and Bahaullah failed to meet those prophecies, then that would be a serious contradiction at the foundation of the Bahai faith. Not just a test, but a logical problem. > > 2) If you have not gotten the impression yet, Baha'u'llah states that there > are always multiple levels of meaning in the words of God. This applies to > the equality of men and women, and to the 'seal of the Prophets', and to > whether the Manifestation is God, or whether God's religion stays the same > over time, or whether all the prophets are one, or whether .... everything. Ok, let's start from that idea. There are multiple levels of meaning in the words of God. I can agree to that. So when it comes to the term "seal of the prophets" Bahais can get creative (not meaning to be facetious) and come up with all sorts of interpretations of "seal" other than last. For example: > > 3) *ALL VALID* ways of viewing the meaning of the 'seal of the prophets'. > > 1 - The Last Prophet of all time. In this view, Muhammad as a Manifestation > has the same spirit as Baha'u'llah, Jesus, .... and the very last physical > prophet before the Sun goes into a supernova. Therefore, in this sense, > since Muhammad is the same spirit as the last prophet to walk the earth in > like 1000000 years or whatever, He is in fact the Last Prophet. > > 2- The Last Prophet of the Prophetic Cycle. In this view, Muhammad was the > last to foretell the coming of the Twin Manifestations the Bab and > Baha'u'llah, who opened the Cycle of Fullfillment. > > 3 - Confirmer/Ratifier/Securer of the Prophets. In this view, Muhammad as > the .... etc. etc. > > 4 - Stamp of the Prophets. In this view, ... I think you get my drift. > > 5 - End of Nabis. > > 6 - etc. etc. I am sure you can think of a few more. I am no scholar. > Ok. But when it comes to interpreting equality of women in the Quran, I've noticed several Bahais not engage in the same kind of effort. Instead of saying how the Quran can be read on multiple levels they would rather have an insulting view of God, and believe that God endorsed wife-beating, and so then it becomes an excuse to get rid of Islam and replace it with something else. When if you didn't want to have an insulting view of God, another approach would be to point out that just as "seal" might mean something other than "last" in Arabic, that "daraba" can mean many other things besides "beat". It's even used in multiple ways in the Quran itself. the word "daraba" which some people translate as "beat" actually appears elsewhere in the Quran itself with other meanings. To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273 To set up: 43:58; 57:13 To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11 To take away, to ignore: 43:5 To condemn: 2:61 To seal, to draw over: 18:11 To cover: 24:31 To explain: 13:17 Not to mention the other meanings it takes elsewhere in Arabic literature. And if you want more clarification on the subject you can look at other places in the Quran and sunnah: "Among the Muslims, the most perfect as regards his faith is the one whose character is most excellent, and the best among you are those who treat their wives well." (Narrated by Tirmidhi.) "We went to the apostle of Allah (pbuh) and asked him: What do you say [command] about our wives??He replied: Give them the same food you have for yourself, and clothe them with the same clothes you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them." (Reported by Abu-Dawud.) "And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect." (Ar-Rum: 21) There are other traditions in Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, and others, to the effect that he forbade the beating of any woman, saying: "Never beat God's handmaidens." > 4) The same principle can apply on the question of Women. Yes, on one > level, the Qur'an established COMPLETE equality between men and women. But Bahais generally don't choose to read the Quran that way. Because if they did read the Quran that way, if they did read the Quran, believing that it was revealed to mankind from a just and merciful God, then there wouldn't be a perceived need for the Bahai faith. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
