On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:08:15 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 12/21/2004 9:31:07 PM Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > For example, Bahais say that an important principle of the faith is > gender equality. But when I discover all the different ways that the > Bahai faith makes distinctions between men and women it makes me feel > lied to.
> Scott > I find the question of women's services on the Universal House of justice > confusing. But that decision was made first by a group containing a large > percentage of women and the decision was unanimous. [...] Gilberto: There are other gender distinctions in the Bahai faith besides just the Universal House of Justice issue although that's obviously a contraversial one. But I'm not even brining up the question of whether the policy is justified. For the sake of argument, let's even assume that it is. If that's the case, then the Bahais should say "We believe in certain distinctions between the roles of men and women and we believe that wisdom behind these rules will be apparent at some point in the distant future.". To just say "we believe in absolute gender equality" and leave it at that seems dishonest. > Gilberto: > "The Bahai faith says that the law of holy war has been blotted from > the book. But then in the Bahai writings I read about the Bahai > concept of "righteous warfare"." > Scott > A nation may defend itself from attack but no other war is acceptable. I'm not convinced that this is true. Under collective security all the nations attack the aggressor, whether they have been attacked individually or not. In some sense the bar for attacking an enemy has been lowered. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying collective security is necessarily some evil doctrine but it certainly isn't pacifism. And I'm still unclear on the exact way it is different from a true understanding of jihad. I've tried to make this point elsewhere but even according to Bahai faith in Some Answered Questions Abdul Baha says that the jihads of Muhammad (Saaws) were defensive. What did Muhammad or Hussein do in their day which wouldn't be permitted to Bahais today? Their enemies were trying to kill them. > > Gilberto: > "It would be one thing if I were talking to a Unitarian-Universalist > who was criticizing Islam. If they wanted to criticize jihad, or the > concept of the Fire, or Islamic attitudes towards gender, I would > still probably disagree with them. And they would probably disagree > with me. But I'm more certain that I could trust them to believe what > they say they believe." > > Scott > I would submit that not understanding what someone believes does not mean > that they are inconsistent in their beliefs. Consistency is the thing that > attracted me most to the faith. Now, one believer's understanding may be > different than another's. Gilberto: I think that's fair. And I've certainly started to realize that individual Bahais will have different takes on the Bahai writings. And some are better at articulating certain doctrines.And different Bahais put the emphasis on different aspects of the writings. But there are cases where the inconsistency I have in mind is a problem but we are talking about the same individual > Gilberto: > "For example, the Bahai faith says very beautiful things about Allah, > and the Quran, and Muhammad and the Imams. I agree. And that's very > nice. The Bahai faith also says some very harsh things about Muslims. > Both sides of that are necessary to get a full picture. If you just > focus on the negatives, you aren't seeing the whole thing. If you just > focus on the positives, you aren't seeing the whole thing." > Scott > Baha`u'llah speaks respectfully of all the Messengers. He also points out > that when a new Messenger appears the clergy of the previous faith become > very hostile and are largely responsible for keeping the people from > accepting the new Messenger. Abdu'l Baha speaks harshly of the Jews who led > the fight against Jesus and contributed to His ultimate faith. To the extent > that they misled the people they are responsible for their own actions. In > the light of what they did do, those actions are not to be approved. Is that > harsh? Truth is truth. If one accepts that Baha`u'llah and Abdu'l Baha are > speaking truth then why do they speak harshly? To prevent others from > committing the errors of the past. That is a good reason, not a harsh > reason. In my opinion, of course. > > Gilberto: > "Gilberto: > I agree its strong, but I don't think I would want to make apolologies > for that. I might try to be tactful and not have the verse written in > neon caligraphy during a Jewish-Muslim interfaith get-together, but I > don't think it should be hidden. The Quran has some beautiful things > to say about Jews and Christians. It also has some harsh things to say > about Jews and Christians. It has some harsh things to say about Arabs > and hypocritical "Muslims" too. And for me personally, what makes the > "harshness" okay is that it is all has a context. Everything is > balanced. And to be honest, I find the tone really refreshing > sometimes." > > Scott: > Yet you condemn the figures of the Baha`i Revelation from speaking in the > same tone for the same purpose? I find that inconsistent. I'm not picking a > fight over it, but it appears to be inconsistent to me. Gilberto: Where did I condemn the figures? The whole point of this isn't to criticize the Bahai figures for what they are saying. I mean, I don't necessarily agree with their comments. They are either true or not true. There are certainly things which Muslim societies have to work on, but all societies are works in progress. There are certainly things which Muslims as a group have to work on. The Bahais have their problems too. The point is that Bahais should admit that this is what the Bahai figures are saying. Peace Gilberto > > Gilberto: > "I'm not sure about your politics, and maybe you don't understand the > example, but it's kind of like the experience of reading Malcolm X. He > sometimes says "harsh" things which need to be said. And even if they > aren't polite or delicate that's perfectly okay because they are true > and spoken out of sincere love." > > Scott: > > Exactly! > > Gilberto" > "I guess what I'm rambling about in different ways and am trying to > suggest is that most of the time, or at least some of the time, the > truth can ultimately be contraversial, divisive, offensive, > inconvenient and harsh sometimes. And it can be conveyed wisely, and > tactfully, sincerely, and in love. But if you value unity and peace > and inoffensiveness too highly, then you can end up compromising that > truth." > > Scott: > Again I agree exactly. > > Gilberto: > "Gilberto: > But there are ALOT of religions out there. If you looked at all the > religions of the world and decided to thoroughly completely > investigate their claims then you would never finish. If you happened > to go in reverse alphabetical order you could read for several > lifetimes before getting to the Bahais." > > Scott > Too true, but there are very few religions revealed that survive for us to > investigate. You would only have to work your way through a dozen or fifteen > . Granted many more true religious revelations have occured in the history > of man. But we do not know the Messenger's name or Scripture anymore. > > Gilberto: > "Actually, that is interesting. Your kind words made me think about > something. The Bahais say that the whole world is a country and > mankind are its citizens. So how does that work out in terms of how > Bahais see the world? And current events?" > > Scott: > > We see it as one world, but those citizens have not all matured at the same > rate and level. Current events are today and always have been "growing > pains" in the unfoldment of the Will of God. One thing we can be sure of - > the Will of God will be fulfilled, because as the Bab said: "All are His > servants, and all abide by His bidding." > > Very High Regards, > > Scott > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st > News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
