Op 10-08-12 12:09, Adam Bolte schreef: > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:23:41AM +0200, Paul van der Vlis wrote: >> Op 10-08-12 05:04, Dmitry Smirnov schreef: >> In this case there is enough information, but not everybody will easy >> find it. I would look here at the "driver plugin" column: >> http://hplipopensource.com/hplip-web/supported_devices/laserjet.html >> And here: http://www.openprinting.org/printers/ >> On both places there is enough information about this printer. But this >> not always the case! > > There will always be early adopters, and will always be hardware for niche > markets where no such information is available. I can't see this situation > going away any time soon, as somebody always has to be the first one to buy > something and try running/adapting free software.
You are right, even good information will not be 100% complete. >> What I would advice, when you have a little money: buy another printer, >> test it, sell this one second hand. > > That's not alway an option. Not everyone lives somewhere where hardware > replacements are both affordable and readily available. Sometimes you have to > deal with what you've been given. True. >> Yes, but only because you bought wrong hardware ;-) > > I'm not comfortable with the idea that any hardware not supported by free > software should be thrown out, if it can work with free software 99%+. Sure > it's not good from a freedom POV and should be avoided wherever possible, but > in situations where the alternative is to throw it out, it's potentially very > wasteful. There are many people using Windows or Mac, you don't have to trow it away. Maybe you can even swap a device with somebody. > It's also very difficult to be 100% sure of *all* the components in any device > - particularly when it's not possible to test hardware with a LiveCD or some > such in advance. Information would be good. It's nonsense that everyone needs to test. > Previously I would just build my own desktop machine from > whatever parts I think would play nice, however laptops and tablets don't give > you such flexibility. In many cases, there is no way to know which chipset a > particular laptop will have. Boot with a liveCD or USB stick, and do "lspci". > The model names can be identical but use > different hardware in different countries or for different revisions... no > hardware database is ever going to fully resolve such issues. Not all hardware manufacturers are like that. The opposite would be good possible: somebody can make hardware what works 100% OK with free drivers/firmware. I think that would be really good. And we all need to help selling them. >> For me flash is important. It's the only closed source software I use on >> my PC. > > You're saying that Flash is important, Yes, there are many sites I cannot use or understand without flash. The alternatives are not good enough at the moment, except for Youtube and some older sites. And without flash I can only use Youtube for video. I can't e.g. watch the evening news in my country, you need flash or silverlight for it. > but some non-free driver that's > required to use a machine isn't? I can't agree with you there. There are many good alternatives for such a machine. But there is no good alternative for flash. Yes, there is HTML5, but it are the websites who have to implement that. But don't understand me wrong: I use e.g. non-free firmware for some machines too. >> I think we can get rid of contrib and non-free by moving it to something >> else. Something we can trust. The same as we have now but not under the >> name "Debian" anymore. >> >> But it's only a little step and not the real solution because then we >> still need nonfree.org then. But it makes more clear that Debian is >> about free software. > > If it's just a matter of changing: > > deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian wheezy contrib non-free > > to say: > > deb http://ftp.nonfree.org/debian wheezy contrib non-free > > I don't think it is all that much of an improvement > - not as long as the Debian project plays any part in it. It's only a little step, but it's important. E.g. to become FSF free in the future. > And I do believe that the Debian project > will need to be doing the right thing by the FSF for endorsement - and not > just the distribution. There will perhaps need to be that level of trust that > the distribution will not change its views down the road. > > To take this to the extreme, if Microsoft released a 100% free software > distribution tomorrow (while still pushing proprietary software for everything > else), I think the FSF would be reluctant to recommend that distribution also. You say it: "while still pushing proprietary software..."/ >> The real solution must come from alternatives for things like flash, >> good information, and hardware what's tested with free drivers. > > There are alternatives. Most probably, these would be a lot better today if > more people cared about them - and more people would care about them if more > people actually used them. You will not become glad to use them, when they do not work. > But I disagree it's always possible (or at least practical) to buy hardware > (assuming you are the one doing the buying) that you know for a fact will with > 100% with free software - not until manufacturers and/or local stores readily > publicly commit to the cause. In many situations, the best you can do is make > an educated guess. I know all about it, I sell computers with Debian pre-installed. And I buy the hardware for it. And what I say: we need a manufacturer who would make a "free" line. With regards, Paul van der Vlis. -- Paul van der Vlis Linux systeembeheer, Groningen http://www.vandervlis.nl _______________________________________________ Fsf-collab-discuss mailing list Fsf-collab-discuss@lists.alioth.debian.org http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/fsf-collab-discuss