After more than 20 years using Linux, I have ABSOLUTELY no thoughts about moving to Windows. My point was that a new user might be daunted by dependency hell. Whether we like it or not, Windows is the de-facto OS and if we want to see people moving to Linux, it's got to be better.
On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 09:45:26 +0300 Jeremy Hoyland <jhoyl...@gmail.com> wrote: > Just to comment on your original post. > Don't think for one moment that things are any better in Windows. > The difference with APT issues is that there *is* something you can do > about it, and ultimately, the problem is resolvable by you. > In Windows things look a lot prettier, but I have often had an > installer fail with no reason given and then automatically roll-back > with no recourse. The solutions there often required manual editing > of the registry. I prefer APT any day. > > On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 08:18, Shlomo Solomon > <shlomo.solo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Thanks for your VERY detailed reply. Some of it was "over my head", > > but relevant and true - although I personally like and use KDE > > despite it being quite bloated for many years now. > > > > As an aside - I got rid of KMail, Akonadi and all their "friends" > > years ago. It's hard to believe that an email program has about 80 > > dependencies and "suggests" another 20 packages!!! > > > > As I wrote, I intentionally did not include too many details about > > the problem since I was not really looking for a solution. > > > > The short version - this seemed to be caused by a broken dependency > > and neither apt-get or dpkg were able to solve this until I manually > > deleted a few post-install scripts. So the "blame" should probably > > fall on the way apt-get and dpkg handle dependencies and/or such > > scripts, and not so much on the Kubuntu maintainers. > > > > Although I did save the relevant apt and dpkg logs, I don't think > > that contacting the Kubuntu maintainers will help because they will > > probably "blame" the software developers who packaged the > > monodevelop IDE (and provided there own PPA) - which never worked > > for me in the first place so I probably should have uninstalled it > > months ago :-). > > > > > > > > On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 21:17:39 -0400 > > Steve Litt <sl...@troubleshooters.com> wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 09:05:24 +0300 > > > Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I > > > > solved my problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam. > > > > > > [snip successful attempts using a ~10 step apt/dpkg witch's brew] > > > > > > I feel your pain. Probably we all do. > > > > > > And it's likely the better people to let off steam at would be: > > > > > > 1) The maintainers of your distro > > > > > > 2) The maintainers of your "Desktop Environment", if any > > > > > > 3) The authors of the software concerned > > > > > > > > > DISTRO: > > > > > > Your complaint isn't very detailed, but the fact that you needed > > > apt to fix it suggests you're using a Debian derived distro. Most > > > Debian extension distros, such as Ubuntu, Mint and Knoppix, add > > > hypercomplexity in order to make them more magically "we do it all > > > for you" and "user friendly", or just to make things look pretty. > > > > > > Debian itself, once a simplistic distro, has been slowly > > > complexifying itself, first by defaulting to selecting of that > > > ball of confusion Gnome3, which itself has been complexifying at > > > a remarkable rate, and then by pledging allegiance to systemd: > > > The ultimate ball of confusion. > > > > > > About the only apt packaged distro I could recommend today, from a > > > dependency-sanity point of view, would be Devuan, which rejected > > > both Gnome3 and systemd. > > > > > > I find it amusing that Debian's solution to substituting a > > > non-systemd init system involves a many-step raindance where you > > > pin this package and hold back that package. > > > > > > Of course, Redhat and Redhat-derived distros are worse. > > > > > > Tell your distro maintainers to quit making package recommends > > > into hard requirements, and to find better solutions than secret > > > apt meetings with secret dpkg handshakes, or else consider not > > > packaging it at all. There are usually substitutes and > > > equivalents. > > > > > > > > > DESKTOP ENVIRONMENTS: > > > > > > Desktop environments, which bind a window manager and a bunch of > > > applications together, including all sorts of interdependencies > > > and promiscuous communications inside and outside of dbus, were > > > obviously a bad idea from the beginning, for people who want to > > > control their computers rather than the other way around. > > > > > > If you use a desktop environment, write to them and tell them to > > > reduce promiscuous communication and dependencies. They'll laugh > > > at you, of course: Their purpose on this earth is to create > > > obscenely interdependent black boxes. > > > > > > You can avoid a lot of this by going back to a window manager and > > > selecting your applications a-la-carte, trying mightily not to > > > include desktop environment apps. If enough people were to do > > > this (not very likely, most people are wedded to their "we do it > > > all for you" environments), the "desktop environments" might > > > catch on and put more of a priority on modularity and thin > > > interfaces (or no interfaces where not needed). > > > > > > I kicked KDE and every KDE app and library off my computer in > > > 2012-2013, and lived to tell about it. I've never used Gnome3, and > > > slowly but surely I've been kicking its apps and libraries off my > > > computer. Now I boss my computer around, not the other way around. > > > > > > > > > THE SOFTWARE AUTHORS: > > > > > > True story. When using Python writing a piece of free software > > > intended to be used by others, I needed one minor but not obvious > > > how to code functionality. So I asked how to code it on the > > > Python IRC channel. Not one answer, but three or four people told > > > me to use some ginormous library, itself having lots of > > > dependencies, that was not part of the standard Python > > > distribution. > > > > > > I explained that I didn't need all that stuff, I just needed this > > > one functionality. I didn't want my users to have to integrate > > > this library into their systems. "No problem", one of the IRC > > > denizens proclaimed, "that's what the Python <whatever> is for: > > > You can build your own Python interpreter for your one > > > application, and ship the interpreter along with the app". Look > > > at your computer's clock: This is not an April Fools joke, this > > > happened. > > > > > > If course I said "no", and then the real abuse happened, with the > > > usual "don't reinvent the wheel" and "scared to learn new things" > > > and a new creative diss: "Real programmers try new packages just > > > to get familiar with them, it's a real opportunity!" > > > > > > Unfortunately, these guys weren't unusual. Way too many > > > programmers, in the name of avoiding reinventing the wheel, > > > integrate somebody else's wheel, when all they needed was an > > > easily available single spoke. You know who suffers? The distro > > > maintainers and the users. > > > > > > All too many developers put absolutely zero priority on > > > simplicity. The slightest improvement in "pretty", or the > > > slightest "improvement" to keep the user from having to use a > > > text editor, is perfect justification to bring in a gargantuan > > > software library with poorly documented API, lots of child > > > dependencies, grandchild dependencies, and who knows how far down > > > the tree it goes. And at any given time, at least one dependency > > > of that software dependency tree gets buggy or goes unmaintained > > > or sets a dependency on something so modern it won't work with > > > your distro, and you get to use a 10 step apt/dpkg choreography. > > > > > > Tell the software authors your objections to gratuitous dependency > > > inclusions, as well as unnecessary and unhelpful communications > > > with barely related software. Tell them you choose software to > > > work and keep on working, not to be pretty or spare you from > > > using an editor. > > > > > > And then do what you told them: When evaluating free software > > > alternatives, significantly downvote those with too many, or > > > unnecessary, dependencies. And if the simpler software lacks a > > > feature you need, you can usually kludge it together with a couple > > > shellscripts and maybe some Python/Perl/Ruby/Lua/awk/grep/sed. We > > > all hate to kludge, but I think the ultimate kludge is some > > > conceited developer requiring 100K lines of imported code to give > > > a couple features he could have done in 100 lines of self-written > > > code, if he'd bothered. > > > > > > I copied the GoLUG mailing list because it's my home-town LUG, > > > and the Devuan mailing list because they're the one direct Debian > > > fork that eschews unnecessary dependencies and intermodular > > > communications. Notice that some forks and extensions of Devuan > > > also keep complexity to a minimum. > > > > > > SteveT > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Linux-il mailing list > > > Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il > > > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il > > > > > > > > -- > > Shlomo Solomon > > http://the-solomons.net > > Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Linux-il mailing list > > Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il > > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il > > > > -- Shlomo Solomon http://the-solomons.net Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04 _______________________________________________ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
