Infallibility of the Guardian Divine Guidance
Hi Dean, Well, here I go again... maybe this time I got it right! 88 GUARDIAN (Infallibility of the) The infallibility of the Guardian is confined to matters which are related strictly to the Cause and interpretation of the teachings; he is not an infallible authority on other subjects, such as economics, science, etc. When he feels that a certain thing is essential for the protection of the Cause, even if it is something that affects a person personally, he must be obeyed, but when he gives advice, such as that he gave you in a previous letter about your future, it is not binding; you are free to follow it or not as you please. (Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 33-34) 89 GUIDANCE, DIVINE (Of Guardian) He feels that if ... ponders more deeply about the fundamentals of Divine Revelation, she will also come to understand the Guardianship. Once the mind and heart have grasped the fact that God guides men through a Mouthpiece, a human being, a Prophet, infallible and unerring, it is only a logical projection of this acceptance to also accept the station of 'Abdu'l-Bahá and the Guardians. The Guardians are the evidence of the maturity of mankind in the sense that at long last men have progressed to the point of having one world, and of needing one world management for human affairs. In the spiritual realm they have also reached the point where God could leave, in human hands (i.e. the Guardians) guided directly by the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, as the Master states in His Will, the affairs of His Faith for this Dispensation. This is what is meant by 'this is the day which will not be followed by night.' In this Dispensation, divine guidance flows on to us in this world after the Prophet's ascension, through first the Master, and then the Guardians. If a person can accept Bahá'u'lláh's function, it should not present any difficulty to them to also accept what He has ordained in a Divinely guided individual in matters pertaining to the Faith. (Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 34) Lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Infallibility of the Guardian Divine Guidance
there is also a very significant quotation from the beloved Guardian that i remember the late Hand of the Cause Mr Khadem showed this servant first and taught me and in a sense inculcated to my limited [by then young and uneducated mind] '... It is not for individual believers to limit the sphere of the Guardian's authority, or to judge when they have to obey the Guardian and when they are free to reject his judgment. Such an attitude would evidently lead to confusion and to schism. The Guardian being the appointed interpreter of the Teachings, it is his responsibility to state what matters which, affecting the interests of the Faith, demand on the part of the believers, complete and unqualified obedience to his instructions.' (From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to and individual believer, August 22, 1977) (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 310) this was a profound opening for me individuals not being able to de-limit the sphere of his authority. humans cannot de-limit that sphere... and the Universal House of Justice have repeatedly used this same quotation in Their elucidations '... It is not for individual believers to limit the sphere of the Guardian's authority, or to judge when they have to obey the Guardian and when they are free to reject his judgment. Such an attitude would evidently lead to confusion and to schism. The Guardian being the appointed interpreter of the Teachings, it is his responsibility to state what matters which, affecting the interests of the Faith, demand on the part of the believers, complete and unqualified obedience to his instructions.' (From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to and individual believer, August 22, 1977) i think though that this subject and the elated subject of Nabil has come up so many times. it would be nice if we could pause and reflect on these issues. all i am most certain of is that the Dawn Breakers has touched so many souls. When the immortal May Bolles Maxwell was on her [last] earthly journey to Aregentina from where she passed on on the boat she gave her last copy of Nabil as translated by the Guardian and the recipient on the boat and all descendents owed their faith to this book and the lady's generosity... please God please God we focus on important matters humbly khazeh Quoting Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Dean, Well, here I go again... maybe this time I got it right! 88 GUARDIAN (Infallibility of the) The infallibility of the Guardian is confined to matters which are related strictly to the Cause and interpretation of the teachings; he is not an infallible authority on other subjects, such as economics, science, etc. When he feels that a certain thing is essential for the protection of the Cause, even if it is something that affects a person personally, he must be obeyed, but when he gives advice, such as that he gave you in a previous letter about your future, it is not binding; you are free to follow it or not as you please. (Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 33-34) 89 GUIDANCE, DIVINE (Of Guardian) He feels that if ... ponders more deeply about the fundamentals of Divine Revelation, she will also come to understand the Guardianship. Once the mind and heart have grasped the fact that God guides men through a Mouthpiece, a human being, a Prophet, infallible and unerring, it is only a logical projection of this acceptance to also accept the station of 'Abdu'l-Bahá and the Guardians. The Guardians are the evidence of the maturity of mankind in the sense that at long last men have progressed to the point of having one world, and of needing one world management for human affairs. In the spiritual realm they have also reached the point where God could leave, in human hands (i.e. the Guardians) guided directly by the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, as the Master states in His Will, the affairs of His Faith for this Dispensation. This is what is meant by 'this is the day which will not be followed by night.' In this Dispensation, divine guidance flows on to us in this world after the Prophet's ascension, through first the Master, and then the Guardians. If a person can accept Bahá'u'lláh's function, it should not present any difficulty to them to also accept what He has ordained in a Divinely guided individual in matters pertaining to the Faith. (Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 34) Lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public -
Re: Infallibility of the Guardian Divine Guidance
Dear Khazeh, While individuals are not to define the limits of Guardian's sphere, his sphere is limited as defined by Abdu'l-Baha's WT and also as delineated by the Guardian and the House of Justice. The boundaries are well drawn and are limited to matters of interpretation of the Sacred Text and protection of the Faith, as quoted earlier. It does not include such things as economics, sciences or matters of history. As Moojan reminded us not long ago, the House of Justice has noted that when Shoghi Effendi was asked by believers in Iran about an incident which had been reported differently by Abdu'l-Baha than what had happened, the Guardian instructed that the friends should report the matter as it had happened and not as Abdu'l-Baha had suggested. Historical records must stand or fall on their own merits and not the authority of the person reporting it. please God please God we focus on important matters These are important matters that we're focusing! If I didn't think it was important, I won't devote time to it. Regards, ahang. Please respond to Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Re: Infallibility of the Guardian Divine Guidance there is also a very significant quotation from the beloved Guardian that i remember the late Hand of the Cause Mr Khadem showed this servant first and taught me and in a sense inculcated to my limited [by then young and uneducated mind] '... It is not for individual believers to limit the sphere of the Guardian's authority, or to judge when they have to obey the Guardian and when they are free to reject his judgment. Such an attitude would evidently lead to confusion and to schism. The Guardian being the appointed interpreter of the Teachings, it is his responsibility to state what matters which, affecting the interests of the Faith, demand on the part of the believers, complete and unqualified obedience to his instructions.' (From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to and individual believer, August 22, 1977) (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 310) this was a profound opening for me individuals not being able to de-limit the sphere of his authority. humans cannot de-limit that sphere... and the Universal House of Justice have repeatedly used this same quotation in Their elucidations '... It is not for individual believers to limit the sphere of the Guardian's authority, or to judge when they have to obey the Guardian and when they are free to reject his judgment. Such an attitude would evidently lead to confusion and to schism. The Guardian being the appointed interpreter of the Teachings, it is his responsibility to state what matters which, affecting the interests of the Faith, demand on the part of the believers, complete and unqualified obedience to his instructions.' (From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to and individual believer, August 22, 1977) i think though that this subject and the elated subject of Nabil has come up so many times. it would be nice if we could pause and reflect on these issues. all i am most certain of is that the Dawn Breakers has touched so many souls. When the immortal May Bolles Maxwell was on her [last] earthly journey to Aregentina from where she passed on on the boat she gave her last copy of Nabil as translated by the Guardian and the recipient on the boat and all descendents owed their faith to this book and the lady's generosity... please God please God we focus on important matters humbly khazeh Quoting Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Dean, Well, here I go again... maybe this time I got it right! 88 GUARDIAN (Infallibility of the) The infallibility of the Guardian is confined to matters which are related strictly to the Cause and interpretation of the teachings; he is not an infallible authority on other subjects, such as economics, science, etc. When he feels that a certain thing is essential for the protection of the Cause, even if it is something that affects a person personally, he must be obeyed, but when he gives advice, such as that he gave you in a previous letter about your future, it is not binding; you are free to follow it or not as you please. (Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 33-34) 89 GUIDANCE, DIVINE (Of Guardian) He feels that if ... ponders more deeply about the fundamentals of Divine Revelation, she will also come to understand the Guardianship. Once the mind and heart have grasped the fact that God guides men through a Mouthpiece, a human being, a Prophet, infallible and unerring, it is only a logical projection of this acceptance to also accept the station of 'Abdu'l-Bahá and the Guardians. The Guardians are the evidence of the maturity of mankind in the sense that at long last men have progressed to the point of having one world, and of needing one world management for human
Re: Letters of the Living
In my opinion the Dawnbreakers falls into the category of "matters strictly related to the Cause". Here is something from the Universal House of Justice 1977-08-22 "He explains that he is not an infallible authority on subjects such as economics and science, nor does he go into technical matters since his infallibility is confined to "matters which are related strictly to the Cause." __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Bud Dean, here he is not interpreting the word of God, but the word of Nabil. Not that he doesn't have additional insight, mind you, but I think the thrust of it is the fact that Nabil isn't scripture, so his translation/interpretation/interpolation may not partake in his infallibility. warmest regards, Christian. Dean Betts wrote: Dear Ahang, ...He is the Interpreter of the Word of God ... -- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 11 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sacred Mythology and Historical Fact
Something can be both sacred mythology and factually true. Myth may imply false or innacurate or made up in the common vernacular, but parables are myths, and the Qur'an and Bible both clearly state that they are speaking in parables. If some of the parables happen to be true (ie, Jesus knew this guy who..., etc.) then that's not inconsistent, just can't be relied upon. Often, however, the term myth is used in a way that derrogates a thing or belief, which I suspect is at the root of Dean's objection to framing the Faith in this way. regards, Christian. Dean Betts wrote: So all the Manifestations of God are part of sacred mythology? This is repulsive to me, let alone anyone I might mention the Faith to. Pehaps this is why I don't teach the Faith well. To the average person, and according to common usage, myth and truth are at odds, in fact opposites. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sacred Mythology and Historical Fact
On Tue, 6 Apr 2004, Christian E. Gruber wrote: Something can be both sacred mythology and factually true. Myth may - Reminds me of this: All the stories in the Bible are true and some of them actually happened Loving regards, Iskandar __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kitabi Siossieh
Some of the Babis possessed a small book called Kitabi Siossieh (The Book of Behaviour). Does anyone know who wrote it and what kind of writings it contains? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
re: Infallibility of the Guardian Divine Guidance
Some disconnected thoughts, I haven't worked all of this through. 1. The Guardian stated that he is not infallible in economics or science. Somehow, history got added to that list. It is entirely possible that he is *not* infallible in writing or editing history; my point is that he didn't include history in that letter he directed his secretary to write on his behalf. 2. The House of Justice has acknowledged that there are errors in the Guardian's history of the first Baha'i Century -- God Passes By. http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_bible_errors_gpb.html That letter specifically refers to errors of attribution -- that the Guardian quotes a Bible verse, and incorrectly attributes it to a different Biblical author. He correctly interprets it as referring to Baha'u'llah -- and that is clearly in his sphere of infallibility, interpretation of the meaning of Scripture. He incorrectly cites where it is in the Bible. How much this bears on the divine guidance he receives in histories he writes, or histories he translates, I don't know. And I think that the guidance from the Guardian and the House about not limiting the sphere of the Guardian's infallibility should be kept in mind here. We are incapable of drawing any bright lines in this regard; it is wholly beyond our capacity. 3. There were instances when the Guardian deferred to historians: As there is nothing specific about Joseph Smith in the teachings, the Guardian has no statement to make on his position or about the accuracy of any statement in the Book of Mormon regarding American history or its peoples. This is a matter for historians to pass upon. (From a letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, High Endeavours - Messages to Alaska, p. 71) [n.b. the proviso -- there is nothing in the teachings on that subject. -- B.P.] However, note the way in which he holds the views of historians in this letter: There are no dates in our teachings regarding the actual dates of the Prophets of the Adamic Cycle, so we cannot give any. Tentatively we can accept what historians may consider accurate. (From a letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi dated November 25, 1950; Lights of Guidance, 2nd edition, pp. 503-504) It would be interesting to know what the question was, that generated the following response from the Guardian: We as Baha'is are not influenced by the categorical assertions of scholars. We believe that what Baha'u'llah has revealed and `Abdu'l-Baha is written is from God, and divinely inspired; that Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of God, and has access to a knowledge denied to ordinary human beings. (From a letter on behalf of the Guardian dated April 2, 1954; Lights of Guidance, 2nd edition, p. 536) As far as what to do when the Master says one thing, and history another, there are two sides to that. While it is true that the Guardian said to record what the history said in that one instance referred to by one of the friends, in another case his secretary wrote on his behalf: Historians cannot be sure Socrates did not visit the Holy Land. But believing as we do that `Abdu'l-Baha had an intuitive knowledge quite different from our own, we accept His authority on this matter. (From a letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi dated June 7, 1946; Arohanui, p. 88) 4. When speaking of the Guardian's role in his translation of Nabil's Narrative (or as Khanum states, the Guardian re-created Nabil's Narrative, Priceless Pearl p. 215) I think that profound respect is due to it, because of his station. Whether one finds errors, whether one views it as sacred myth, whether it is viewed as simply one history among many -- it is a work of Shoghi Effendi, and careless remarks needlessly hurt people, and are disrespectful, and reduce the impact of the remarks made. 4. Shoghi Effendi many times uses the Dawn-breakers as a source for his own history of the Faith, throughout God Passes By. What's good enough for him, is good enough for me. That's just me as an individual believer, and perhaps a believer who is a professional historian would take a different view. 5. Here are Shoghi Effendi's own words about his work on that book: I have just completed, after eight months of continuous and hard labour, the translation of the history of the early days of the Cause and have sent the manuscript to the American National Assembly. The work comprises about 600 pages and 200 pages of additional notes that I have gleaned during the summer months from different books. I have been so absorbed in this work that I have been forced to delay my correspondence... I am now so tired and exhausted that I can hardly write...The record is an authentic one and deals chiefly with the Bb. Parts of it have been read to Bah'u'llh and been revised by 'Abdu'l-Bah... I am so overcome with fatigue caused by the long and sever strain of the work I have undertaken that I must stop and lie down. (Quoted in Ruhiyyih Khanum, The Priceless
Re: Infallibility of the Guardian Divine Guidance
4. Shoghi Effendi many times uses the Dawn-breakers as a source for his own history of the Faith, throughout God Passes By. This is simply not true. He used a wide variety of sources. Read the Priceless Pearl. He spent a year reading and taking notes. He used a wide variety of sourcesnot the least of which wasDawnbreakers __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Infallibility of the Guardian Divine Guidance
It is written: it is not for individual believers to limit the sphere of the Guardian's authority, or to judge when they have to obey the Guardian and when they are free to reject his judgment. It is also written: The infallibility of the Guardian is confined to matters which are related strictly to the Cause and interpretation of the teachings... These are just the words being discussed on this list. Now, it seems that the assumption has been (but I have not been following too closely) that the sphere of the Guardian's authority and the sphere of his infallibility coincide. Is there any reason to think so? My off the cuff expectation is that they don't. Regards William __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
