date:20060129

RE: My fears are for Him Who will be sent down unto you after Me

2006-01-29 Thread Sandra








Fascinating thread -speculating on the next Manifestation 
"...ere the expiration of a full thousand years, ..."

Assuming the human race advances to the consensus 
thatEarth is "but one country and mankind it's citizens"; and indeed the 
Province of Almighty God;it does not seem unreasonable that they would 
accept a female Manifestation.

It seems to me that one potentially inherent characteristic of 
such a degree ofunity would bea sense of superiority - reveling in 
their achievement.

And in consideration of the technological and scientific 
advances that will assuredly occur over the course ofa thousand years, by 
the Grace of God andthe enlightenment of thepeoples of 
Earth;the physical appearance of "...Him Who will be sent down..." 
could be the greatest test and spiritual challenge to the devout - if He were 
not an "Earthling".

Just my thoughts...

Sandra








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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Tim Nolan

the Covenant was also crystal clear about a continuing line of Guardians, so I don't think that really addresses Hasan's question about badaa. The Will and Testament is clear about how future Guardians were to be chosen, but that document does not guarantee that there will always be a living Guardian. The Will also doesn't guarantee there will always be a Universal House of Justice. However, even if that institution ceased to exist, for some reason, the NSA's of the world could elect another one. Because of that,I think it's likely we will always have a Universal House of Justice, at least until the next Manifestation comes.Tim
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Tim Nolan







  I am curious about the purpose of discussing this topic, given that none of us will be around in 900 years to see what happens.If in a discussion, someone raises the possibility that the House of Justice might lose its infallibility after the thousand years have passed, how does that thought affect our attitude toward the Universal House of Justice now?In 90 years or less, everyone now on this email list will have left this world, therefore,  what is the reason for discussing this? We will never know the answer, except perhape from the next worlds.Tim
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Hasan Elias

Tim Nolan [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:I am curious about the purpose of discussing this topic, given that none of us will be around in 900 years to see what happens. Hi Tim,To talk about Four and Seven Valleys, doesnt actually means that any of us could reach the last valleys? (At least not me!!!) Or Church-State issue, or future International Tribunal, Commonwealth, Most Great Peace, etc., etc.Anyway, I understand your point, but we can teach our future generations to be prepared in exactly 1000 years counting from the Blessed Beautys Revelation which according to our Writing had place in the Black Pit (1852-53).Also, this topic is not completely off-time, why? Because time pass quickly! lol. Because it is a part of the Covenant, my understanding of that not followed by night is that though winter doesnt have a place in!
this
Day, that could be exactly the reason people would think they dont need a Prophet and therefore will reject Him/Her.Lets take a look to these quotes: http://bahai-library.com/compilations/covenant.htmlAbout the importance of acceptance the Prophets: The Lord of the universe hath never raised up a prophet nor hath He sent down a Book unless He hath established His covenant with all men, calling for their acceptance of the next Revelation and of the next Book; inasmuch as the outpourings of His bounty are ceaseless and without limit. ("Selections from the Writings of the Bb", [rev. ed.] (Haifa: Bah' World Centre, 1982), p. 87) Abraham, on Him be peace, made a covenant concerning Moses and gave the glad-tidings of His coming. Moses made a covenant concerning the promised Christ, and announced the good news of His advent to the world. Christ made a covenant concerning the Paraclete and gave the tidings of His coming. The Prophet Muhammad made a covenant concerning the Bb, and the Bb was the One promised by Muhammad, for Muhammad gave the tidings of His coming. The Bb made a Covenant concerning the Blessed Beauty, Bah'u'llh, and gave the
glad-tidings of His coming for the Blessed Beauty was the One promised by the Bb. Bah'u'llh made a covenant concerning a Promised One Who will become manifest after one thousand or thousands of years. That Manifestation is Bah'u'llh's Promised One, and will appear after a thousand or thousands of years. He, moreover, with His Supreme Pen, entered into a great Covenant and Testament with all the Bah's whereby they were all commanded to follow the Centre of the Covenant after His ascension, and depart, not even to a hair's breadth, from obeying Him. ('Abdu'l-Bah, from a Tablet - translated from the Persian, published in "Bah' World Faith" (Wilmette: Bah' Publishing Trust, 1976), p. About the next Prophet: Verily God will raise up Him Whom God shall make manifest, and after Him Whomsoever He willeth, even as He hath raised up prophets before the Point of the Bayn. He in truth hath power over all things. ("Selections from the Writings of the Bb", p. 144)Concerning the Manifestations that will come down in the future "in the shadows of the clouds," know, verily, that in so far as their relation to the Source of their inspiration is concerned, they are under the shadow of the Ancient Beauty. In their relation, however, to the age in which they appear, each and every one of them "doeth whatsoever He willeth." ('Abdu'l-Bah, cited in "The World Order of Bah'u'llh - Selected Letters", p. 167)

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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread David Bowie


Sunday, January 29, 2006, 11 Sultán 162 BE

In 1997 a friend of mine wrote to the House of 
Justice about the recognition (or not) of the 
next Manifestation.  He received this reply.


David


MESSAGE:

The Universal House of Justice has received your 
email message of 24 May 1997 inquiring about the 
eventual recognition of the next Manifestation of 
God by the Universal House of Justice.  Regarding 
your request to be provided with a copy of a 
particular letter from the House of Justice to an 
individual believer in which this matter was 
addressed, regrettably we were not able to 
determine which of several letters written on 
this subject by the House of Justice, or by the 
Department of the Secretariat on behalf of the 
House of Justice, you were referring to.  One 
such letter, which encompasses the contents of the others, is excerpted below.


With reference to infallibility, you quote from 
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh that 
trials and tribulations have, from time 
immemorial, been the lot of the chosen Ones of 
God..., and express concern that this implies 
that the Universal House of Justice will not 
recognize the next Manifestation of God.


There are several statements in the Sacred 
Scriptures of our Faith which are related to this 
general subject, and one in particular is found 
in The Dispensation of Bahá'u'lláh, (The World 
Order of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 117) as follows: My 
fears are for Him Who will be sent down unto you 
after Me Him Who will be invested with great 
sovereignty and mighty dominion.  When a 
National Assembly wrote to the Guardian, asking 
about this reference, the following reply was sent on his behalf.


...this refers to the Manifestation Who is to 
come after a thousand or more years, Who like all 
previous Messengers of God will be subjected to 
persecutions, but will eventually triumph over 
them.  For men of ill will have been and will 
always continue to be in this world, unless 
mankind reaches a state of complete and absolute 
perfection a condition which is not only 
improbable but actually impossible to attain.


As you see, the persecutions to which the next 
Manifestation will be subjected will be carried 
out, according to the above statement, by men of 
ill will who, alas, will continue to be in this 
world.  There is nothing in the Writings to 
support the view that the opposition or 
persecution will be instigated or inflicted by the Universal House of Justice.


You are aware, of course, that one of the reasons 
for the appearance of a new Manifestation of God 
is to bring forth a spiritual renewal, as the 
former Dispensation would have passed through its 
stages of growth and reached its zenith.  You can 
be sure that the Supreme Institution of the 
Faith, under the care and protection of the Abhá 
Beauty, under the shelter and unerring guidance 
of His Holiness, the Exalted One, will exert 
every effort to recognize, when the time is ripe, 
the reality of the new Manifestation, and lead 
men to Him.  How the majority of the people at 
that time will respond is a truth locked up in the treasury of God's knowledge.


We trust that this information will aid in your understanding of this subject.

Department of the Secretariat


The quotes the Guardian gathered in the Dispensation state as explicitly as
any subject in the Baha'i Writings that it will be not less than 1000 years
before the next Manifestation.  The Covenant, unlike other subjects in the
Faith (like the mystical teachings) are not hidden and waiting to be
discovered.  They are express.  The Covenant is absolutely crystal-clear, in
explicit verses.  Not only Baha'u'llah's written Covenant to turn to the
Master; and the Master's Covenant to turn to the House and the Guardian; but
in addition Baha'u'llah's Covenant regarding the appearance of the next
Manifestation.  The thousand years could not be more explicit. (WOB 132)

Furthermore:

Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is
deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all
created things.
 (Baha'u'llah:  The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Page: 32)








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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Hasan Elias

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or peharps 1511 or 2001. ;-}///Hey Susan, good point, most of Shaykhs and Azalis (about Ghiyath 1511) confine the interpret!
ation of
their respective messianic prophecies into intrinsic numerological tricks to reject the Bb and Bahullh respectively. A scholar said me that in Tablets not yet translated, Bahullh links Mustaghath and its number 2001 with the numbers 9 and 19. I know great scholar Stephen Lambden (http://www.hurqalya.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/BAHA'-ALLAH/L-Khalil%20Shirazi.htm) explains about this issue, saying this could refer to future Manifestations, but maybe you can resume it better to us.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The thing is that it is my understanding that the Guardian saidthat therewill always be a Universal House of Justice.To my knowle!
dge he
didn't say that in any of his writings. And as far as his pilgrim's notes go, they presumed that the day would not be followed by night because a future Guardian could not fail to recognize the next Manifestation! ///It is fiction, but there is always short times of messianic concealment. I think in one thousand there will be messianic concealment, a distant descendant of Bahullh could claim Guardianship, and this could be that concealment! If this descendant claim Guardianship in MORE than 1000 years, is legally correct, then this guardian could be the Manifestation, or lead us to the Manifestation. But I could be wrong, as Susan said: conjecture is conjecture. Please, see this quote of Abdul-Bah: "My purpose is this, that ere the expiration of a thousand years, no one has the right to utter a single word, even to claim the station of Guardianship. "The Most Holy Book is the Book to which all peoples shall refer, and in it the Laws of God have been revealed. Laws not mentioned in the Book should be referred to the decision of the Universal House of Justice..." (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 313)

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread smaneck

 I am curious about  the purpose of discussing this topic, given 
 that none of us will be around in 900 years to see what happens.

Dear Tim, 

Well, it didn't start with speculation about what would happen in a 
thousand years. It started with Hasan's questions as to whether, given 
the doctrine of badaa, it wasn't possible for there to be another 
Manifestation before then. Of course, the Writings are quite clear on 
this topic, yet badaa presumes a changing of divine Will so Hasan's 
question is valid. The problem is, we would still be covententally 
bound not to follow any such claimant. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Hasan Elias

  Hey David, this letter is splendid, thanks for quoting it here; you saved much much time quoting it!!!I hope many of us follow this noble action, quoting letters we receive from the House with absolute detachment.As to the letter, uhm... I have to read it, my english is not so good.David Bowie [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:  Sunday, January 29, 2006, 11 Sultán 162 BEIn 1997 a friend of mine wrote to the House of Justice about the recognition (or not) of the next Manifestation. He received this reply.DavidMESSAGE:The Universal House of Justice has received your email message of 24 May 1997 inquiring about the eventual recognition of t!
 he next
 Manifestation of God by the Universal House of Justice. Regarding your request to be provided with a copy of a particular letter from the House of Justice to an individual believer in which this matter was addressed, regrettably we were not able to determine which of several letters written on this subject by the House of Justice, or by the Department of the Secretariat on behalf of the House of Justice, you were referring to. One such letter, which encompasses the contents of the others, is excerpted below.With reference to infallibility, you quote from "Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh" that "trials and tribulations have, from time immemorial, been the lot of the chosen Ones of God...", and express concern that this implies that the Universal House of Justice will not recognize the next Manifestation of God.There are several statements in the Sacred Scriptures of our Faith which !
 are
 related to this general subject, and one in particular is found in "The Dispensation of Bahá'u'lláh", ("The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh", p. 117) as follows: "My fears are for Him Who will be sent down unto you after Me Him Who will be invested with great sovereignty and mighty dominion". When a National Assembly wrote to the Guardian, asking about this reference, the following reply was sent on his behalf."...this refers to the Manifestation Who is to come after a thousand or more years, Who like all previous Messengers of God will be subjected to persecutions, but will eventually triumph over them. For men of ill will have been and will always continue to be in this world, unless mankind reaches a state of complete and absolute perfection a condition which is not only improbable but actually impossible to attain."As you see, the persecutions to which the next Manifestation will be subjected!
  will be
 carried out, according to the above statement, by "men of ill will" who, alas, "will continue to be in this world". There is nothing in the Writings to support the view that the opposition or persecution will be instigated or inflicted by the Universal House of Justice.You are aware, of course, that one of the reasons for the appearance of a new Manifestation of God is to bring forth a spiritual renewal, as the former Dispensation would have passed through its stages of growth and reached its zenith. You can be sure that the Supreme Institution of the Faith, "under the care and protection of the Abhá Beauty, under the shelter and unerring guidance of His Holiness, the Exalted One", will exert every effort to recognize, when the time is ripe, the reality of the new Manifestation, and lead men to Him. How the majority of the people at that time will respond is a truth locked up in the treasury of God's
 knowledge.We trust that this information will aid in your understanding of this subject.Department of the SecretariatThe quotes the Guardian gathered in the Dispensation state as explicitly asany subject in the Baha'i Writings that it will be not less than 1000 yearsbefore the next Manifestation. The Covenant, unlike other subjects in theFaith (like the mystical teachings) are not hidden and waiting to bediscovered. They are express. The Covenant is absolutely crystal-clear, inexplicit verses. Not only Baha'u'llah's written Covenant to turn to theMaster; and the Master's Covenant to turn to the House and the Guardian; butin addition Baha'u'llah's Covenant regarding the appearance of the nextManifestation. The thousand years could not be more explicit. (WOB 132)Furthermore:Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning isde!
 prived of
 the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth allcreated things. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Page: 32)The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Hasan Elias







  Dear Susan,Bah'u'llh forbids us to interpret the holy verse of the Aqdas about 1000 or more years the next Coming.I wonder if this BADAH (the possibility of a Prophet before 1000 years) is broking that command.[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:   I am curious about the purpose of discussing this topic, given  that none of us will be around in 900 years to see what happens.Dear Tim, Well, it didn't start with speculation about what would happen in a thousand years. It started with Hasan's questions as to whether, given the doctrine of badaa, it wasn't possible for there to be another Manifestation before then. Of course, the Writings are quite clear on this topic, yet badaa presumes a changing of divine Will so Hasan's questi!
 on is
 valid. The problem is, we would still be covententally bound not to follow any such claimant. warmest, Susan 






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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread smaneck

A scholar said me that in Tablets 
 not yet translated, Bahá'u'lláh links Mustaghath and its number 
 2001 with the numbers 9 and 19. I know great scholar Stephen 
 Lambden (http://www.hurqalya.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/BAHA'-ALLAH/L-
 Khalil%20Shirazi.htm) explains about this issue, saying this could 
 refer to future Manifestations, but maybe you can resume it better 
 to us.

Dear Hasan, 

I think both things are true. Khazeh has written some along these 
lines as well. 
   
   
  It is fiction, but there is always short times of messianic 
 concealment. I think in one thousand there will be messianic 
 concealment, a distant descendant of Bahá'u'lláh could claim 
 Guardianship, and this could be that concealment! If this 
 descendant claim Guardianship in MORE than 1000 years, is legally 
 correct, then this guardian could be the Manifestation, or lead 
 us to the Manifestation. But I could be wrong, as Susan said: 
 conjecture is conjecture.

I know of at least one former member of the Universal House of Justice 
who is persuaded that the Guardianship will be restored when the next 
Manifestation appears. Like Brent, he believes the current 
Administrative Order will last for the next 500,000 years. But if that 
office were indeed restored, would its holder be a descendent of 
Baha'u'llah? Given the fact that all those descendents were Covenant 
breakers, that seems unlikely. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread smaneck

  Bahá'u'lláh forbids us to interpret the holy verse of the Aqdas 
 about 1000 or more years the next Coming.
   
  I wonder if this BADAH (the possibility of a Prophet before 1000 
 years) is broking that command.

Dear Hasan, 

Except what you are actually asking is not if the verse in question 
can be interpreted differently (which it cannot) but whether God can 
change His mind about this, which is theoretically possible but 
creates so many difficulties as to be inconceivable, in my view. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Hasan Elias

Maybe I'm exaggerated about the importance of genetic lines, but I would like to follow the Muhammad, the Bb and Bah'u'llh genetic lines. From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line, that is why I ask about the importance of "spiritual genes".[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi: A scholar said me that in Tablets not yet translated, Bah'u'llh links Mustaghath and its number 2001 with the numbers 9 and 19. I know great scholar Stephen Lambden (http://www.hurqalya.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/BAHA'-ALLAH/L- Khalil%20Shirazi.htm) explains about this issue, saying this could refer to future Manifestations, but maybe you can resume it better to us.Dear Hasan, I think both things are true. Khazeh has written some along these l!
ines as
well.It is fiction, but there is always short times of messianic concealment. I think in one thousand there will be messianic concealment, a distant descendant of Bah'u'llh could claim Guardianship, and this could be that concealment! If this descendant claim Guardianship in MORE than 1000 years, is legally correct, then this "guardian" could be the Manifestation, or lead us to the Manifestation. But I could be wrong, as Susan said: "conjecture is conjecture".I know of at least one former member of the Universal House of Justice who is persuaded that the Guardianship will be restored when the next Manifestation appears. Like Brent, he believes the current Administrative Order will last for the next 500,000 years. But if that office were indeed restored, would its holder be a descendent of Baha'u'llah? Given the fact that all those descendents were Cov!
enant
breakers, that seems unlikely. warmest, Susan

to David B.

2006-01-29 Thread Hasan Elias







  David, I think I never saw this letter, could you send it to bahai-library.com? Please contact the admin Jonah Winters.For my part I will save it immediately on my HDD.David Bowie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 escribi:Sunday, January 29, 2006, 11 Sultn 162 BEIn 1997 a friend of mine wrote to the House of Justice about the recognition (or not) of the next Manifestation. He received this reply.David






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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread smaneck

 From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line, 
 that is why I ask about the importance of spiritual genes.

Dear Hasan, 

It is not a blood line that can really be traced historically. Give a 
few hundred years and everyone is related to everyone else anyhow. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Hasan Elias

  Susan, do you think next Prophet will be a descendent of Abraham through Aghsán or Afnán lines?If the answer is yes, then how can we sure He/She is? Historically, Siyyid Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure lineage, people can easy recognize it because of siyyids denomination.If the answer is no, I question: is it not promised to Abraham to be the seed of all Prophets?Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:  Possibly from past lines.  I dont think you would like, but we can do this for Afnán and Aghsán.[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:   From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line,  that is why I ask about the impor! tance of "spiritual genes".Dear Hasan, It is not a blood line that can really be traced historically. Give a few hundred years and everyone is related to everyone else anyhow. warmest, Susan  
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Hasan Elias







Dear Susan, do you know any text on whichtheCentral Figures or the Guardian mention the word badaa/badah? I would like to see the context/meaning of this word.  [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:   Bah'u'llh forbids us to interpret the holy verse of the Aqdas  about 1000 or more years the next Coming.  I wonder if this BADAH (the possibility of a Prophet before 1000  years) is broking that command.Dear Hasan, Except what you are actually asking is not if the verse in question can be interpreted differently (which it cannot) but whether God can change His mind about this, which is theoretically possible but creates so many difficulties as to be inconceivable, in my view. warmest, Susan
 






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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread smaneck

 Possibly from past lines.
  I don't think you would like, but we can do this for Afnán and 
 Aghsán.   

Dear Hasan, 

I expect in a few hundred years everyone will have some Afnan blood in 
their veins. As for those who descend from Covenant breakers, they are 
more likely to want to hide their lineage, don't you think? 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread smaneck

  Susan, do you think next Prophet will be a descendent of Abraham 
 through Aghsán or Afnán lines?
   
  If the answer is ?yes?, then how can we sure He/She is? 

Dear Hasan, 

As a historian I can't even be sure that Abraham ever existed. But if 
He did then I expect everyone will be a descendent from Abraham by the 
time the next Manifestation arrives. That is just the way demographics 
work. 

 Historically, Siyyid Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure 
 lineage, people can easy recognize it because of ?siyyid?s 
 denomination.   

Yeah, because the wore special turbans. ;-}

  If the answer is ?no?, I question: is it not promised to Abraham 
 to be the seed of all Prophets?

Does that need to be understood literally? I think the common Baha'i 
belief that Zoroaster, Buddha and Krishna are from the seed of Abraham 
is probably a myth. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Brent Poirier

I think that this is one of the instances of bada'a in the Writings. Here is is 
translated as creation:  . . . the Beauty of the Unseen hath shone forth 
above the horizon of creation Prayers and Meditations p. 311.

Khazeh Fananapazir once said that bada'a is from the same root as Badi’.  I 
understand Badi’ to mean unique, wonderful, new, unprecedented, never before 
seen, among other meanings.  So I gather that the application to God changing 
His mind – (a very anthropomorphic concept, as we are talking about universal 
Mind and not limited, linear, rational, dinky little human mind) -- has to do 
with originating something new.

My view of the ending of the line of Guardians is that it is not the failure of 
a promise.  The Guardian functioning with the House was anticipated by the 
Master, but in the second part of His Will He does not mention the Guardianship 
and provides for the House to function infallibly without the Guardian; and 
Baha’u’llah in the Aqdas foreshadows the possibility of the ending of the line 
of Guardians before the House is established (Aqdas Note 66).

It is my understanding that the continuation of the line of Guardians 
functioning with the House was one of several options.  Another option 
anticipated was that the House would have come into being right after the 
Master’s passing, and that Shoghi Effendi would not have functioned without the 
House.  Another was the way it actually came about.

I compare this to Baha’u’llah revealing verses, then casting them into the 
river.  (GPB 138)  It was God’s Will to reveal them; but then, as Baha’u’llah 
says, no one was found worthy to hear them. Perhaps the Guardian and House 
functioning together was the desired approach, but humanity was not found 
worthy.  That doesn’t mean that the clear Covenant was not fulfilled.

As to the verse about day not being followed by night, Shoghi Effendi did 
relate this to the line of Guardians. It means that guidance remains on the 
earth until the next Manifestation comes – there is no “night”.  The guidance 
promised to the Guardian in the Master’s Will, is the same guidance promised to 
the House, in the same verse. (Master’s Will, p. 11).  The House also takes 
this approach:

“The election of the Universal House of Justice was greeted with great joy by 
the world-wide Bahá'í community, for it ensured the continuation of divine 
guidance until the advent of the next Manifestation of God, thereby fulfilling 
the prophecy that there would come a ‘Day which shall not be followed by 
night.’
(The Universal House of Justice, Messages 1963 to 1986, p. xxvii; also see 
letter in the Scholarship Compilation).

As to whether the Guardian, in referring to the “machinery” remaining behind 
after Baha’u’llah into future Dispensations, and whether this refers to the 
House of Justice always being on the earth:

It should also be borne in mind that the machinery of the Cause has been so 
fashioned, that whatever is deemed necessary to incorporate into it in order to 
keep it in the forefront of all progressive movements, can, according to the 
provisions made by Bahá'u'lláh, be safely embodied therein. To this testify the 
words of Bahá'u'lláh, as recorded in the Eighth Leaf of the exalted Paradise: 
It is incumbent upon the Trustees of the House of Justice to take counsel 
together regarding those things which have not outwardly been revealed in the 
Book, and to enforce that which is agreeable to them. God will verily inspire 
them with whatsoever He willeth, and He, verily, is the Provider, the 
Omniscient.
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 22)


And finally the tenth part of this mighty process must be the penetration of 
that light, in the course of numerous crusades and of successive epochs of both 
the Formative and Golden Ages of the Faith, into all the remaining territories 
of the globe through the erection of the entire machinery of Bahá'u'lláh's 
Administrative Order in all territories, both East and West, the stage at which 
the light of God's triumphant Faith shining in all its power and glory will 
have suffused and enveloped the entire planet.
(Shoghi Effendi, Messages to the Baha'i World - 1950-1957, p. 155)

The House of Justice is the crown of that machinery.

Brent



 
 
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Re: to David B.

2006-01-29 Thread David Bowie









Sunday, January 29, 2006, 11 Sultn 162 BE
Hasan,
I would have to get the permission of the recipient first.
David
David, I think I never saw this
letter, could you send it to bahai-library.com? Please contact the admin
Jonah Winters.?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office /

For my part I will save it immediately on my HDD.

David Bowie [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:



Sunday, January 29, 2006, 11 Sultn 162 BE

In 1997 a friend of mine wrote to the House of 

Justice about the recognition (or not) of the 

next Manifestation. He received this reply.

David





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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Brent Poirier

10. QUESTION: Shaving the head hath been forbidden in the
Kitáb-i-Aqdas but enjoined in the Suriy-i-Hajj.

ANSWER: All are charged with obedience to the
Kitáb-i-Aqdas; whatsoever is revealed therein is
the Law of God amid His servants. The injunction
on pilgrims to the sacred House to shave the head
hath been lifted.
(Tablet of Questions and Answers, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 109)

So Baha'u'llah revealed a Tablet requiring pilgrims to shave the head; then in 
the Aqdas prohibited shaving the head.  

Did He change His mind?  I think that is perhaps the first instinct, to think 
that.  But a few other thoughts come to mind. One is that by this law, 
Baha'u'llah was demonstrating that He *could* have requiring pilgrims to shave 
the head.  Then this law would be seen in the same light as the laws of the 
Bayan, which the Guardian explained were never intended to be enforced, but 
rather to demonstrate the sovereignty of the Bab as an independent 
Manifestation.

So the reason that a Manifestation reveals something, is not always the obvious 
one.

My personal take on this, is that in this verse from Questions and Answers 
Baha'u'llah is demonstrating the pre-eminence of the Aqdas over His other 
Writings.  It is a more effective lesson and sinks deeper than merely stating 
that it is pre-eminent.

Similarly, some time after He originally revealed it, Baha'u'llah later added a 
passage to the Iqan, in which He expresses His devotion to the Bab and states 
that He wants to lay down His life for Him.  Shoghi Effendi selected this 
passage for the frontispiece to the Dawn-Breakers, not knowing that it was an 
afterthought.  Hand of the Cause Ugo Giachery was present when the original of 
the Iqan in the handwriting of `Abdu'l-Baha was presented to Shoghi Effendi:

These manuscripts, Shoghi Effendi stated, were transcribed by 'Abdu'l-Bahá in 
His beautiful calligraphy, when He was about eighteen years old, and bore some 
additions in the Hand of Bahá'u'lláh, insertions which He had written on the 
margins of many pages in reviewing the manuscripts. Shoghi Effendi had never 
before seen the original of the Íqán and was deeply astonished to discover that 
the phrase he had chosen from this book and placed on the title page of his 
translation of Nabil's Narrative, The Dawn-Breakers, was an after-reflection of 
Bahá'u'lláh's, written by Himself, on the margin of one page. The phrase in 
question is the one starting: 'I stand, life in hand, ready; that 
perchance...'[KI, p. 161 (Brit. ed.), p. 252 (U.S. ed.). See DB for the 
translation here used, which appears on the title page.]

The Guardian, that evening, was not only astonished but overjoyed as well, 
because he was conscious that through a mysterious process he had been inspired 
to adopt that phrase as an eternal testimonial to Bahá'u'lláh's yearning to 
sacrifice His life for the Báb, the Primal Point. All of us who were seated at 
the table were awed and profoundly stirred, and I, in particular, felt that the 
existence of a spiritual link between our Guardian and the invisible world of 
God was something that no one should ever doubt.
(Ugo Giachery, Shoghi Effendi - Recollections, p. 148)

So again, does this mean that Baha'u'llah changed His mind about the contents 
of the Iqan?  Or was this a way of emphasizing this passage?

Perhaps we can read of an addition to the Aqdas in the same light:

The eighth Ishraq

This passage, now written by the Pen of Glory, is accounted as part of the 
Most Holy Book: The men of God's House of Justice have been charged with the 
affairs of the people. They, in truth, are the Trustees of God among His 
servants and the daysprings of authority in His countries.

O people of God! That which traineth the world is Justice, for it is upheld by 
two pillars, reward and punishment. These two pillars are the sources of life 
to the world. Inasmuch as for each day there is a new problem and for every 
problem an expedient solution, such affairs should be referred to the House of 
Justice that the members thereof may act according to the needs and 
requirements of the time. They that, for the sake of God, arise to serve His 
Cause, are the recipients of divine inspiration from the unseen Kingdom. It is 
incumbent upon all to be obedient unto them. All matters of State should be 
referred to the House of Justice, but acts of worship must be observed 
according to that which God hath revealed in His Book.
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, pp. 128-129)

Does this mean that Baha'u'llah didn't think of this passage when He authored 
the Aqdas?  That God left something out of the Book, and Baha'u'llah remedied 
it later?

It is my own personal view that by this method Baha'u'llah has emphasized this 
matter.  Just as the Master selected the very last verse of His Will -- 
literally the very last words He addressed to the human race -- to direct us to 
turn to the House of Justice and the Guardian and seek their guidance; in the 
same

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread smaneck

 Khazeh Fananapazir once said that bada'a is from the same root as 
 Badi’. 

Dear Brent,

My recollection is that he said they had a different root. 
Unfortunately, we can't access the archives any more to check. 

Khazeh jan, are you out there? 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Iskandar Hai, M.D.

My understanding is that this badAA concept/doctrine is a Shi`ii thing. I
don't know if Sunni Muslims have a particular emphasis on it. For Shi`ah
Muslims badAA is when God chnages His mind. The successor the the Shi`ah
6th Imam (Imam J`afar the Truthful) was supposed to be his son Ismael
(IsmA`il). Strories vary as to why and hos it got changed to J`afar's son
MusA al-kAzim. Hence, the Twelver Shi`ites believe that MusA is/was the
legitimate successor to J`afar. But you also have the IsmA`ily sect. 

Anyhow, my own personal understanding of the term badAA in the Baha'i
Writings is formed by what I heard from the renowned Persian Baha'i
scholar and prolific writer `abdu'l-hameed ishrAq-khAvari (who himself was
an erudite and well-read Shi`ah Muslim cleric before he embraced The
Faith). He used to say that in Baha'i theology, badAA simply means that a
every 1000 years or so, a new manifestation of God comes and
changes/abrogates some Divine laws of the preceding Manifestaion of God.
To me, this has always made a lot of sense. BadAA is nothing but
Progressive Revelation. 

Regardless of how you spell it, badaa or bada, the list vowel is a long
A as in fAther. You can trasliterate it badA or badAA, or badaa, or
bada, or whatever. The second letter is a short a as in bad. 

But I should have deferred to our very erudite Khazeh for his encylopaedic
knowledge of all things Islamic and Christian and Jewish and Baha'i. 

With apologies and respectful regards, 
Iskandar





 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? Guardians' line

2006-01-29 Thread Hasan Elias

Yes, I think the cut of Guardians line is about badaa, maybe because unworthiness of humans, and this unworthiness because we dont reach the high standard. If a hypothetically future living Guardian could easily recognize next Prophet, it will be ate bread (pan comido), humanity, thus wont deserve this; we can think in a lot of reasons. What is true is that Aghsn and Holy family did not fulfill this hope of 'Abdu'l-Bah (on the contrary, they caused sadness): O ye the faithful loved ones of 'Abdu'l-Bah! It is incumbent upon you to take the greatest care of Shoghi Effendi, the twig that hath branched from and the fruit given forth by the two hallowed and Divine Lote-Trees, that no dust of despondency and sorrow may stain his radiant nature, that day by day he may wax greater in happiness, in joy and spirituality, and may grow to become even as a fruitful tree. Brent Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:I compare this to Bahaullah revealing verses, then casting them into the river. (GPB 138) It was Gods Will to reveal them; but then, as Bahaullah says, no one was found worthy to hear them. Perhaps the Guardi!
an and
House functioning together was the desired approach, but humanity was not found worthy. That doesnt mean that the clear Covenant was not fulfilled.

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Hasan Elias

I'm not sure.[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi: Possibly from past lines. I don't think you would like, but we can do this for Afnn and Aghsn. Dear Hasan, I expect in a few hundred years everyone will have some Afnan blood in their veins. As for those who descend from Covenant breakers, they are more likely to want to hide their lineage, don't you think? warmest, Susan

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Hasan Elias

[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi: As a historian I can't even be sure that Abraham ever existed. But if He did then I expect everyone will be a descendent from Abraham by the time the next Manifestation arrives. That is just the way demographics work. /For you a historian is the same as a bah historian or a bah who is an historian? why you worry?Islam has something like fifteen centuries but not all people of the world have siyyids roots. Have you? [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi: Historically, Siyyid Kazim said the Qaim (the Bb) was of pure lineage, people can easy recognize it because of ?siyyid?s denomination. Yeah, because the wore special turbans. ;-} / I think Im getting your point but with technology we can trace these blood lines, dont you think?[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi: If the answer is ?no?, I question: is it not promised to Abraham to be the seed of all Prophets?Does that need to be understood literally? I think the common Baha'i belief that Zoroaster, Buddha and Krishna are from the seed of Ab!
raham
is probably a myth. Yeah, but for example: Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus (city-State unity) and Muhammad (nation unity sealing Prophets) are from Israels prophetic root. So, Abraham is the seed of all them (Israels root). As you know (not common history) there WERE Prophets in all parts of the world, but for some reason Israel!
s root is
the main root. My logic sense says that Abraham has nothing to do with Wiracocha, an ancient Prophet of my country Peru.

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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Scott Saylors

So who do we dig up to get the DNA baseline? The Bab, since we have no direct descendants left, for sure - we need both his "Y" Chromosome DNA and his matrilineal mitochondrial material. Then we'll need the same for the line of Baha`u'llah - so we'll need to disinter either Bahas`u'llah or Abdu'l Baha.I think you might appreciate the idea that this might be considered desecration by many.Regards, ScottHasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: As a historian I can't even be sure that Abraham ever existed. But if He did then I expect everyone will be a descendent from Abraham by the time the next Manifestation arrives. That is just the way demographics work. /For you a historian is the same as a baháí historian or a baháí who is an historian? why you worry?Islam has something like fifteen centuries but not all people of the world have siyyids roots. Have you? [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: Historically, Siyyid Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure lineage, people can easy recognize it because of ?siyyid?s denomination. Yeah, because the wore special turbans. ;-} / I think Im getting your point but with technology we can trace these blood lines, dont you think?[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: If the answer is ?no?, I question: is it not promised to Abraham to be the seed of all Prophets?Does that need to be understood literally? I think the common Baha'i belief that Zoroaster, Buddha and Krishna are from the seed of Ab! raham is probably a myth. Yeah, but for example: Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus (city-State unity) and Muhammad (nation unity sealing Prophets) are from Israels prophetic root. So, Abraham is the seed of all them (Israels
root). As you know (not common history) there WERE Prophets in all parts of the world, but for some reason Israel! s root is the main root. My logic sense says that Abraham has nothing to do with Wiracocha, an ancient Prophet of my country Peru. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the !
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Hasan Elias







too extreme no? you must be kidding,I thougtht there was another way like follow genealogical family tree but never desecrate holy tombs!...Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:So who do we dig up to get the DNA baseline? The Bab, since we have no direct descendants left, for sure - we need both his "Y" Chromosome DNA and his matrilineal mitochondrial material. Then we'll need the same for the line of Baha`u'llah - so we'll need to disinter either Bahas`u'llah or Abdu'l Baha.I think you might appreciate the idea that this might be considered desecration by many.Regards,  Scott






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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Scott Saylors

Family trees are proof of nothing, really. They are at best a "contention". No, desecrating a tomb is not an answer, and getting actually genetic proof of anything is not going to be a possibility. The choice will have to be what it has always been, a spiritual decision, reached by taking free will in one's grasp and accepting responsibility for it when the time comes.Regards, ScottHasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:too extreme no? you must be kidding,I thougtht there was another way like follow genealogical family tree but never desecrate holy tombs!...Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:So who do we dig up to get the DNA baseline? The Bab, since we have no direct descendants left, for sure - we need both his "Y" Chromosome DNA and his matrilineal mitochondrial material. Then we'll need the same for the line of Baha`u'llah - so we'll need to disinter either Bahas`u'llah or Abdu'l Baha.I think you might appreciate the idea that this might be considered desecration by many.Regards, Scott The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The informat!
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Hasan Elias

You still joke? If family trees are nothing for you, then the hereditary principle (including our beloved Guardian in it) should be nothing but NOTHING for you until you check it in a laboratory! The same for the Imanate until you be sure or desecrate Imams holy tombs. The glorious lineage of both the Bb and Bahullh, the instruction of Siyyid Kazim, etc., etc.Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:Family trees are proof of nothing, really. They are at best a "contention". No, desecrating a tomb is not an answer, and getting actually genetic proof of anything!
is not
going to be a possibility. The choice will have to be what it has always been, a spiritual decision, reached by taking free will in one's grasp and accepting responsibility for it when the time comes.Regards, Scott

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Scott Saylors

I am not trying to upset you. I am not joking.Think of it this way: In the future someone appears CLAIMING to be the next Manifestation and produces a family tree showing he is descended from Baha`u'llah. Why can that family tree NOT be falsified? So, in that instance, it would prove nothing by itself. One would still have to make the decision to follow or not follow on a spiritual basis.Regards, ScottHasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You still joke? If family trees are nothing for you, then the hereditary principle (including our beloved Guardian in it) should be nothing !
but
NOTHING for you until you check it in a laboratory! The same for the Imanate until you be sure or desecrate Imams holy tombs. The glorious lineage of both the Báb and Baháulláh, the instruction of Siyyid Kazim, etc., etc.Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:Family trees are proof of nothing, really. They are at best a "contention". No, desecrating a tomb is not an answer, and getting actually genetic proof of anything! is not going to be a possibility. The choice will have to be what it has always been, a spiritual decision, reached by taking free will in one's grasp and accepting responsibility for it when the time comes.Regards, Scott
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Don Calkins

At 11:52 AM -0600 1/29/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line,

that is why I ask about the importance of spiritual genes.

Dear Hasan,

It is not a blood line that can really be traced historically. Give a
few hundred years and everyone is related to everyone else anyhow.

If all the descendants of a couple marry and have 2 children, after
35 generations you have 2 to the power of 35 descendants or about 35
billion. That's why every white guy in the world, and many
non-whites, can trace their family tree back to Charlemagne.

A couple things complicate this -
Rejecting matrilineal descendants,
Marrying cousins.

Don C

-.-.-.-.-
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.

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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Gilberto Simpson

On 1/29/06, Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Susan, do you think next Prophet will be a descendent of Abraham through
 Aghsán or Afnán lines?

 If the answer is 'yes', then how can we sure He/She is? Historically, Siyyid
 Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure lineage, people can easy recognize
 it because of 'siyyid's denomination.

 If the answer is 'no', I question: is it not promised to Abraham to be the
 seed of all Prophets?

There is a passage in the Quran which is sometimes read that way.

But about the earlier issue, I think that if you go back far enough we
are all related. For example, there is some indication that even
John Kerry is descended from the prophet Muhammad (saaws)... I think
through some distant Persian ancestry. And so he is also descended
from Abraham.


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread smaneck

Gilberto, 

Did I miss your post apologizing to me, or did I not make it clear 
that you are not welcome here without one? 

Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread smaneck

He used to say that in Baha'i theology, badAA simply means 
 that a
 every 1000 years or so, a new manifestation of God comes and
 changes/abrogates some Divine laws of the preceding Manifestaion 
 of God.
 To me, this has always made a lot of sense. BadAA is nothing but
 Progressive Revelation. 

Dear Iskandar, 

The concept of badaa may well include Progressive Revelation, but 
given the way it is used in the Writings it is certainly not exclusive 
to it. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: A Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-29 Thread Khazeh








Regardless of how you spell it, badaa or 
bada, the list vowel is a long"A" as in "fAther". You can trasliterate it 
badA or badAA, or badaa, orbada, or whatever. The second letter is a short 
"a" as in "bad". But I should have deferred to our very erudite Khazeh 
...

Iskandar

Dear Brent,My recollection is that he 
said they had a different root. Unfortunately, we can't access the archives 
any more to check. Khazeh jan, are you out there? warmest, Susan 

Dearest all

i swear by God
I beg forgiveness of God by virtue of Iskandar jan's 
kind references to this dust. i am nothing and daily my sense of nothingness 
before the Almighty Ocean of this Revelation increases.

Dearest Brent has explained things beautifully as well 
as Iskandar jan and Susan yourself.

but just on the simple level of etymology and 
words.

1] there is a word and verb B.D. 'A [with 'ayn] as the 
last of the tri-literal letters.
this one means creating anew creating wondrously etc 
from which on the POSITIVE sense we have badii' with 'ayn at the end as the name 
of the Martyr [but negatively its meaning and connotation is starting a new 
practice such as the Shari'ah of this faith is accused of as being as a bid'at] 
so both positively and negatively its root is B.D.'A [with the 
'ayn]

2] then there is the word and verb badaa' with a long 
alif at the end. this comes from the tri-literal root B.D. A [but this time the 
A is alif]...this one is the subject of the discussion re: Noah's promise not 
coming to pass and the reference to the Imam Ja'far S.aadiq's son 
...]

but that aside there are mysteries in the Faith 
wonderful mysteries

may my being be a sacrifice to your 
efforts
but i am absolutely humbled by the Magnitude of this 
Revelation and affected by your kindness. Everything emanates from Him and the 
love and kindness of God's Universal House of Justice


Brent said:

"10. QUESTION: Shaving the head hath been forbidden 
in theKitb-i-Aqdas but enjoined in the Suriy-i-Hajj.""ANSWER: All 
are charged with obedience to theKitb-i-Aqdas; whatsoever is revealed 
therein isthe Law of God amid His servants. The injunctionon pilgrims to 
the sacred House to shave the headhath been lifted."(Tablet of Questions 
and Answers, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 109)So Baha'u'llah revealed a Tablet 
requiring pilgrims to shave the head; then in the Aqdas prohibited shaving the 
head. Did He change His mind? I think that is perhaps the 
first instinct, to think that. But a few other thoughts come to mind. One 
is that by this law, Baha'u'llah was demonstrating that He *could* have 
requiring pilgrims to shave the head. Then this law would be seen in the 
same light as the laws of the Bayan, which the Guardian explained were never 
intended to be enforced, but rather to demonstrate the sovereignty of the Bab as 
an independent Manifestation.So the reason that a Manifestation reveals 
something, is not always the obvious one.My personal take on this, is 
that in this verse from Questions and Answers Baha'u'llah is demonstrating the 
pre-eminence of the Aqdas over His other Writings. It is a more effective 
lesson and sinks deeper than merely stating that it is 
pre-eminent.Similarly, some time after He originally revealed it, 
Baha'u'llah later added a passage to the Iqan, in which He expresses His 
devotion to the Bab and states that He wants to lay down His life for Him. 
Shoghi Effendi selected this passage for the frontispiece to the Dawn-Breakers, 
not knowing that it was an afterthought. Hand of the Cause Ugo Giachery 
was present when the original of the Iqan in the handwriting of `Abdu'l-Baha was 
presented to Shoghi Effendi:"These manuscripts, Shoghi Effendi stated, 
were transcribed by 'Abdu'l-Bah in His beautiful calligraphy, when He was about 
eighteen years old, and bore some additions in the Hand of Bah'u'llh, 
insertions which He had written on the margins of many pages in reviewing the 
manuscripts. Shoghi Effendi had never before seen the original of the qn and 
was deeply astonished to discover that the phrase he had chosen from this book 
and placed on the title page of his translation of Nabil's Narrative, The 
Dawn-Breakers, was an after-reflection of Bah'u'llh's, written by Himself, on 
the margin of one page. The phrase in question is the one starting: 'I stand, 
life in hand, ready; that perchance...'[KI, p. 161 (Brit. ed.), p. 252 (U.S. 
ed.). See DB for the translation here used, which appears on the title 
page.]"The Guardian, that evening, was not only astonished but overjoyed 
as well, because he was conscious that through a mysterious process he had been 
inspired to adopt that phrase as an eternal testimonial to Bah'u'llh's 
yearning to sacrifice His life for the Bb, the Primal Point. All of us who were 
seated at the table were awed and profoundly stirred, and I, in particular, felt 
that the existence of a spiritual link between our Guardian and the invisible 
world of God was something that no one should

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

2006-01-29 Thread Gilberto Simpson

 On 1/30/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,

 Did I miss your post apologizing to me, or did I not make it clear
 that you are not welcome here without one?

I showed you evidence for my claims about your beliefs which was also
another option which you offered. But in addition I also made a
statement which constituted an apology. You then cut and isolated the
least apologetic sentence and said this is not an apology. And when
I pasted the rest of my statements back into the conversation in order
to provide more context, you complained that I had distorted your
words. (which would only be a problem if what you took out actually
was an apology)

I think we are two individuals who are equally deserving of
consideration and respect. If you get to say offensive and insulting
things to me without apologizing, then if I say something you don't
like, it would be inappropriate to give an ultimatum the way you did,
especially when my intention wasn't to offend.

Is there a charter for the group which explains conditions for participation?

-Gilberto






 Susan




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