RE: Scope of the House of Justice -VERY LONG
In The thirteenth Glad-Tidings and The eighth Ishraq, Baha'u'llah refers to The MEN of God's House of Justice as the Trustees of God. Dear Sandra, Keep in mind that originally Abdu'l-Baha applied this passage when asked why women were excluded from the Chicago House of Justice. It was later He restricted its application to the Universal House of Justice. In the Aqdas, referencing previous epistles Baha'u'llah enjoins upon the Trustees of the House of Justice either to choose one language from among those now existing or to adopt a new one ... I'll grant you that this is likely to be a function of the Universal House of Justice alone. In Tablets of Baha'u'llah, while reiterating earlier passages in the Aqdas and other Tablets; Baha'u'llah said: ...all affairs are committed to the care of just kings and presidents and of the Trustees of the House of Justice. As kings and presidents are equated with the Trustees, it leaves little doubt in my mind that He intends the *Universal* House of Justice and not any of the Local Spiritual Assemblies or future Local Houses of Justice. But why wouldn't it apply to Secondary Houses of Justice? And, again from Tablets of Baha'u'llah, He said: ...the Trustees are then to take from him that which is required for their instruction, if he be wealthy, and if not the matter devolveth upon the House of Justice. [for the education of children] Again, the education of children may well have roots in the local community - however, this statement speaks to taxation. So why wouldn't local Houses of Justice be in charge of taxation? Abdu'l-Baha seems to place them in charge of the local storehouses. Also, in Tablets, the Trustees of God's House of Justice are again paired with the chiefs and rulers of the world... not likely Baha'u'llah is referring to Local Houses of Justice there. Again, there are all kinds of levels of Houses of Justice. And they are all considered 'rulers in Baha. In God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi states that in the Aqdas, Baha'u'llah: ordains the institution of the House of Justice, defines its functions, fixes its revenues, and designates its members as the Men of Justice, the Deputies of God, the Trustees of the All-Merciful ... And indeed He does! [page 26 And elsewhere the term 'Trustees of the all-Mericful applied to lesser institutions as well. With regard to the Iqan quote: Ultimately, the Local and National Assemblies must rely on the Universal House of Justice *expound meanings*, and *unravel mystery* and, it's been established that Baha'u'llah designated ...the men of God's House of Justice as the Trustees of God. Sandra, that the function of the Authoritative Interpreters and the Manifestations not the Universal House of Justice. I believe in most if not all the quotes I gave, the words *Trustees* or *House of Justice* or *Universal House of Justice* are all in combination with a personal pronoun - making the title or designation - *specific* to one/singular institution. Huh? What personal pronouns are you talking about? It's been a long time since I've had any formal education in English. I'm open to correction if I'm wrong. I don't see him adopting a convention of capitalizing references to the Universal House of Justice. Can you provide a sentence from any of the Guardian's writings or translations where he did NOT capitalize Universal House of Justice ? I'm still looking for one... I said *references* to the Universal House of Justice, not the name Universal House of Justice which is capitalized by virtue of being a proper name. But so are Houses of Justice generically. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Scope of the House of Justice -VERY LONG
Susan: Is that what your argument is based on, capitalization? Because as far as I know there is not any convention whereby Baha'is are supposed to use upper case letters to refer to the Universal House of Justice and lower case when referring to other institutions. The only difference between those passages using caps or not using caps as far as I can tell is that the former are translated by the Guardian and the latter are later translations. Dear Susan, Considering that I wasn't stating my opinion and and defining my personal logic in an attempt to persuade, I would have to say No to your question. I don't view this as a great debate with a winner and loser. I view this as consultation with a view to gaining new insights; and no vested interest in anyone accepting or rejecting my opinion. Actually, whenever, I have a curiosity about a particular topic I research for constancy in the writings. Having done that - I'm personally convinced that my initial understanding still holds... (for me at least!) Would you agree that in the English language words which are are capitalized enable the reader to distinguish, in context, the significance of the capitalization. For instance: God or god. I trust the Guardian intended to convey the distinctive nature of the title when capitalizing *Trustees*. He knew the value of nuances contained in the English language and utilized the language as a tool - I suspect it was an exercise he relished. World Order was the first Baha'i book I read and I still find it totally amazing as an example of the vast range of the English language with regard to clarity. I do hope Ahang can find time to track the scope of the House of Justice through the text. I think it's an important topic to pursue and gain a better understanding of the progression of the vision from Baha'u'llah, to Abdu'l-Baha and then the Guardian. Lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Scope of the House of Justice -VERY LONG
Considering that I wasn't stating my opinion and and defining my personal logic in an attempt to persuade, I would have to say No to your question. I don't view this as a great debate with a winner and loser. Dear Sandra, Sorry if I came down too hard in that last post. I'm using the term argument in the sense of a fact or assertion offered as evidence that something is true. You wrote: Would you agree that in the English language words which are are capitalized enable the reader to distinguish, in context, the significance of the capitalization. For instance: God or god. God is used a proper noun when it is capitalized if that is what you mean. But I'm not sure what you mean by enabling 'the reader to distinguish, in context, the significance of the capitalization.' I trust the Guardian intended to convey the distinctive nature of the title when capitalizing *Trustees*. Okay, but as I mentioned the only time he capitalized it was in that passage from the Iqan which does not refer to the members of any House of Justice, local or universal. The other passages you cited are not translated by the Guardian. The other cases are ones where he uses it in caps as a title in GPB and the World Order letters. I don't see any consistency in where he uses or doesn't use caps in conection with those texts. In any case, my point, is that you are ascribing a meaning to those texts which doesn't follow either from the rules of English grammar or from the Guardian's own usage. I don't see him adopting a convention of capitalizing references to the Universal House of Justice. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Scope of the House of Justice -VERY LONG
Dr. G. Thanks, the unsubscribe request went through From: "Richard H. Gravelly" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" bahai-st@list.jccc.edu To: "Baha'i Studies" bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Scope of the House of Justice -VERY LONG Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:58:01 -0800 The compilation is excellent Sandra.Thank you much. Richard. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Scope of the House of Justice -VERY LONG
I'm in complete agreement with Brent's understanding and I feel that is supported by numerous references from Baha'u'llah's Writings where the *Trustees* are a direct reference the the [Universal] House of Justice. Dear Sandra, Some of those passage you cite would refer only to the Universal House of Justice and some to Houses of Justice in general. I don't think that the term 'trustee' is any hint as to which He is referring to. All members of any elected institution are 'Trustees of the Merciful.' warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Scope of the House of Justice -VERY LONG
Susan: Some of those passage you cite would refer only to the Universal House of Justice and some to Houses of Justice in general. I don't think that the term 'trustee' is any hint as to which He is referring to. All members of any elected institution are 'Trustees of the Merciful.' Dear Susan, Perhaps the quote below is one you are thinking of: 5. The Lord hath ordained that in every city a House of Justice be established wherein shall gather counsellors to the number of Baha, and should it exceed this number it does not matter... It behoveth them to be the trusted ones of the Merciful among men and to regard themselves as the guardians appointed of God for all that dwell on earth. It is incumbent upon them to take counsel together and to have regard for the interests of the servants of God, for His sake, even as they regard their own interests, and to choose that which is meet and seemly. Thus hath the Lord your God, the Gracious, the Pardoner, commanded you. Beware lest ye put away that which is clearly revealed in His Tablet. Fear God, O ye that perceive. (Baha'u'llah, Synopsis and Codification of the Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 13) and this one also: To repudiate the validity of the assemblies of the elected ministers of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh would be to reject those countless Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá wherein They have extolled the station of the trustees of the Merciful, enumerated their privileges and duties, emphasized the glory of their mission, revealed the immensity of their task, and warned them of the attacks they must needs expect from the unwisdom of their friends as well as from the malice of their enemies. It is surely for those to whose hands so priceless a heritage has been committed to prayerfully watch lest the tool should supersede the Faith itself, lest undue concern for the minute details arising from the administration of the Cause obscure the vision of its promoters, lest partiality, ambition, and worldliness tend in the course of time to becloud the radiance, stain the purity, and impair the effectiveness of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh. (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 9) Now, if I were not aware of the Guardian's persnickety precision in his English translations, I might agree that all the previous post references referred to any Baha'i House of Justice. However, I have no doubt that the Guardian understood the capitalization of proper nouns. Having said that; I did notice that there were two quotes from the Guardian, which I included before, where the word *trustees* was not capitalized. I will also concede that there is a margin of error involved from written work to printed text... But, taking that into consideration does not outweigh my gut feeling. In closing, I took a swim OCEAN and found no other references besides the two quoted here that literally ties the phrase trustees of the Merciful to Local Houses of Justice. I view 'Trustees of the Merciful' [as written] to be a specific title or phrase that constitutes the distinctive designation of this particular legislative body. Lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Scope of the House of Justice -VERY LONG
In a message dated 1/29/2005 6:55:36 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "Now, if I were not aware of the Guardian's persnickety precision in his English translations, I might agree that all the previous post references referred to any Baha'i House of Justice. However, I have no doubt that the Guardian understood the capitalization of proper nouns." Dear Sandra, Is that what your argument is based on, capitalization? Because as far as I know there is not any convention whereby Baha'is are supposed to use upper case letters to refer to the Universal House of Justice and lower case when referring to other institutions. The only difference between those passages using caps or not using caps as far as I can tell is that the former are translated by the Guardian and the latter arelater translations. The one exception I see is that passage from the Iqan and I don't think that is referring to the members of the House of Justice at all. That strikes me rather as a reference to the Manifestation and the authorized interpreters. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
