Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
I missed the answer, if any, to this. Is the "Gooseneck" Car Holder still available? regards Martin Peter Trapp wrote: On Donnerstag, 27. März 2008, steve wrote: Maybe I just create a "spares" product? with 3 batteries, and some other goodies thrown in? What goodies would go in that bag? In one of the first announcements there was a car holder (including a car charger). Do they still/already exist? cheers - homyx ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Le jeudi 27 mars 2008 à 10:30 -0700, steve a écrit : Yes, The information about returns and defects etc needs to be shared. First, however, it needs to be established or estimated. I haven’t seen a single number from anybody on the demand rate for batteries or LCD or back covers. Anyone care to guess? We provide many mobile DECT phones, and few GSM to very small companies (1-10 ppl) and few bigs (100+). Majors returns are about batteries, nearly 1:1 ratio if customer keep it's device for more than 2years. Second, we have to provide accessories (screen protectors, chargers, holster, sync cable, ...). Third we get few defect (Dead on arrival or misused like falling, got in water, broken LCD and some recall / updates from the manufacturer) and we can fix or change for a new. My guess : - at least 30% batteries in stock, people didn't want to wait to have it changed - get 10-20% accessories and chargers - then a 1-5% for repairs, I think it's the less valued. At least for business customers (most of our market), you'd better have few Freerunner in stock to make a 1:1 change and get an happy customer. You can make the repair in lab then resell the device as reconditioned one. Hope it helps. -- Alexandre ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 8:18 PM, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alas there is *absolutely* *NO* way for NEO though to tell when your braindead 850mA charger will start to slowly melt down overnight when you set 1A charge mode via applet. It's very unlikely there will ever be any trouble other than very rare occasional broken chargers, but we just can't guarantee it's safe, for nobody knows all the chargers in this world. As a hacker poking around with prototype hardware, that's a fine answer. For a mass market device, that's suicide. I understand that the Neo can't make the determination, but in the long run I think that Openmoko MUST. It is physically possible to charge the Neo at it's full speed (because it happens with the USB charger) so therefore it must be physically POSSIBLE to have an AC or DC based charger that does the same thing without requiring a computer tether. If any charger on the market can do this I think it would be simple enough for Openmoko to certify that the MODEL (not each unit, of course) is compatible and, unless it malfunctions, won't burst into flame. If there exists no such device on the market then perhaps that needs to be corrected either directly or indirectly. Put very simple Car charging is a very big deal. Assuming the first (certification) or second (fabrication) options can't be met - drop the fast charge as a feature since anyone unable to fast charge in their car will consider their device broken at best or sold on a feature that doesn't exist. However it's not our fault when sth really bad is happening, for every charger/host is supposed to be short-circuit safe (mustn't burn, otherwise probably mustn't be sold), I don't think anybody expects a certification of safety from Openmoko (there are voluntary organizations like Underwriter's Laboratories here in the US that will certify safety) for a product to go to market and even if they DID nobody can rightly expect you'll certify that no device will ever malfunction. and it's the USER who has to think *before* enabling 1A mode. Hey guys, when connecting your 110V device to a 230V outlet in Europe, whom do you blame for the smoke?! The common user mentality is one that has, IMO, bitten Free Software repeatedly. As a serious (and non-belittling) thought exercise, how many people here know what amperage their car charger pushes out? How many people here have wives or mothers or nephews that know that answer? The average person buys a car charger because the box says Compatible with model. Some might not even go that far since a commonly held assumption is that if it fits in the hole, it will work. Yeah, kinda stupid, but it's also pretty reasonable to expect that this WILL happen. It's also reasonable to suspect that at least SOME people will take that and have it reflect poorly on Openmoko even if the charger was bought third party. It's sometimes easy to dismiss user stupidity when you're writing code that you use and the only signs you see are a ticking download counter or more hits in a server log, but this is something that I think could directly relate to the ability to sell SECOND units to people. bottom line: USB is specified for 500mA at MAX, and even this needs intelligent host (alias charger). Everything beyond has to have some intelligence with it, either the one of the user not messing with chargemode, or the one of OM-designers creating and checking for a proprietary way to signal 500mA charger capabilities (=48k). (PS: For the record: If i got this right, the 48k even means I'm a charger and I can do *2*(!)A, just GTA02 can't take more than 1A. This might change for GTA0x!) HTH cheers your friendly engineer jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
The problem with non-standard USB charging (was: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the big problem is that there is no standard for reporting current capacity other than the USB protocol, which is not supported by dumb chargers. What this means is that the various tricks that we and others play (shorting unused data pins, adding resistors of specific values between two pins, etc.) are all completely non-standard meaning there is no agreement between manufacturers and most importantly NO PROM iSE THAT FUTURE DEVICES OF THE SAME MODEL NUMBER WILL USE THE SAME TECHNIQUE! In other words we could test a given Motorola charger today, find that they have a resistor of value x between two pins, write the code to test for this value and then bump up the current draw to the value that we know the Motorola charger can provide. But then next month Motorola might change the value of this resistor. They might send a firmware update over the air to all their phones to make existing phones compatible with the new charger. We, of course, do not get this update, and suddenly the charger that we had tested no longer works. For a good example of this problem see Lady Ada's discussion on her Minty Boost. You will see a string of reports from people saying they needed to modify the resistor value and/or location in order to get Minty Boost to work with different models of iPods. And any solution is always temporary, until Apple changes something and then the resistor must change again. Thus the only way we can guarantee safe charging at higher than the USB maximum of 500mA is with our own charger. I would love to see a technical report, a white paper, written on this issue. Would anyone like to take on the challenge? Winner gets an Openmoko t-shirt (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SWAG) Michael Kevin Dean wrote: On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 8:18 PM, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alas there is *absolutely* *NO* way for NEO though to tell when your braindead 850mA charger will start to slowly melt down overnight when you set 1A charge mode via applet. It's very unlikely there will ever be any trouble other than very rare occasional broken chargers, but we just can't guarantee it's safe, for nobody knows all the chargers in this world. As a hacker poking around with prototype hardware, that's a fine answer. For a mass market device, that's suicide. I understand that the Neo can't make the determination, but in the long run I think that Openmoko MUST. It is physically possible to charge the Neo at it's full speed (because it happens with the USB charger) so therefore it must be physically POSSIBLE to have an AC or DC based charger that does the same thing without requiring a computer tether. If any charger on the market can do this I think it would be simple enough for Openmoko to certify that the MODEL (not each unit, of course) is compatible and, unless it malfunctions, won't burst into flame. If there exists no such device on the market then perhaps that needs to be corrected either directly or indirectly. Put very simple Car charging is a very big deal. Assuming the first (certification) or second (fabrication) options can't be met - drop the fast charge as a feature since anyone unable to fast charge in their car will consider their device broken at best or sold on a feature that doesn't exist. However it's not our fault when sth really bad is happening, for every charger/host is supposed to be short-circuit safe (mustn't burn, otherwise probably mustn't be sold), I don't think anybody expects a certification of safety from Openmoko (there are voluntary organizations like Underwriter's Laboratories here in the US that will certify safety) for a product to go to market and even if they DID nobody can rightly expect you'll certify that no device will ever malfunction. and it's the USER who has to think *before* enabling 1A mode. Hey guys, when connecting your 110V device to a 230V outlet in Europe, whom do you blame for the smoke?! The common user mentality is one that has, IMO, bitten Free Software repeatedly. As a serious (and non-belittling) thought exercise, how many people here know what amperage their car charger pushes out? How many people here have wives or mothers or nephews that know that answer? The average person buys a car charger because the box says Compatible with model. Some might not even go that far since a commonly held assumption is that if it fits in the hole, it will work. Yeah, kinda stupid, but it's also pretty reasonable to expect that this WILL happen. It's also reasonable to suspect that at least SOME people will take that and have it reflect poorly on Openmoko even if the charger was bought third party. It's sometimes easy to dismiss user stupidity when you're writing code that you use and the only signs you see are a ticking download counter or more hits in a server log, but this is something that I think could directly relate to the ability to sell SECOND units to people. bottom line:
Re: The problem with non-standard USB charging (was: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts)
Michel, this is a perfect description of the current situation. You have to wear the t-shirt yourself! :-) cherrs jOERG Am Fr 28. März 2008 schrieb Michael Shiloh: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the big problem is that there is no standard for reporting current capacity other than the USB protocol, which is not supported by dumb chargers. What this means is that the various tricks that we and others play (shorting unused data pins, adding resistors of specific values between two pins, etc.) are all completely non-standard meaning there is no agreement between manufacturers and most importantly NO PROM iSE THAT FUTURE DEVICES OF THE SAME MODEL NUMBER WILL USE THE SAME TECHNIQUE! In other words we could test a given Motorola charger today, find that they have a resistor of value x between two pins, write the code to test for this value and then bump up the current draw to the value that we know the Motorola charger can provide. But then next month Motorola might change the value of this resistor. They might send a firmware update over the air to all their phones to make existing phones compatible with the new charger. We, of course, do not get this update, and suddenly the charger that we had tested no longer works. For a good example of this problem see Lady Ada's discussion on her Minty Boost. You will see a string of reports from people saying they needed to modify the resistor value and/or location in order to get Minty Boost to work with different models of iPods. And any solution is always temporary, until Apple changes something and then the resistor must change again. Thus the only way we can guarantee safe charging at higher than the USB maximum of 500mA is with our own charger. I would love to see a technical report, a white paper, written on this issue. Would anyone like to take on the challenge? Winner gets an Openmoko t-shirt (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SWAG) Michael Kevin Dean wrote: O community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Thx. -Original Message- From: joerg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:19 PM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Cc: steve; 'Kevin Dean' Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts Engineering says: you can't have both, 1A charging _and_ protection for every case of missmanagement (DAU, stupid user). USB is specified for 500mA MAX. Period! (and devices have even to announce when they want more than 100mA). Anyway a stupid charger consisting of a transformer, a diode bridge, and at best some 5V-regulator, usually doesn't know of *any* announcement via USB-protocol regarding 100-500mA (it probably has only 2 of the 4 wires it needs for *real* USB). So the situation is (or to be clear: SHOULD BE. This has to be checked carefully for Freerunner, cause there are indications it's not at least like this) connect any charger: - - NEO will take no more than 100mA (actually 200-300mA, BUG! (AFAIK)) have intelligent host (PC) OR set charge mode to 500mA by GUI applet: - - NEO will take no more than 500mA (yet to be tested?) connect original OM-charger (with 47K resistor) OR set charge mode to 1000mA by GUI applet (not yet implemented?): - - NEO will take no more than 1A (PMU 50633 limit) (this seems to work, more or less) Alas there is *absolutely* *NO* way for NEO though to tell when your braindead 850mA charger will start to slowly melt down overnight when you set 1A charge mode via applet. It's very unlikely there will ever be any trouble other than very rare occasional broken chargers, but we just can't guarantee it's safe, for nobody knows all the chargers in this world. However it's not our fault when sth really bad is happening, for every charger/host is supposed to be short-circuit safe (mustn't burn, otherwise probably mustn't be sold), and it's the USER who has to think *before* enabling 1A mode. Hey guys, when connecting your 110V device to a 230V outlet in Europe, whom do you blame for the smoke?! For the Y-cables to connect to 2 USB-hostports: these are absolute fake, they don't balance the current in any manner, so if one port is blowfused (cause it once was strong) or it is weak, or dead, or disabled, the whole surge goes to the other stronger port (Blam!). And these Y-cables not even do correct negotiation for at least 500mA per port!!! So with these Y-cables, all you can safely expect are no more 100mA! Everything beyond breaks specs again. I (for own use) will check the writing on my charger, then guess whether it's reasonably safe to enable 500mA or 1A, and maybe come back after 10 min to check whether it's still charging and charger does not start to smell. For PC USB-hosts I have no problem to force 500mA (though this should be nonsense because will happen automatically), and i will *never* try 1A, not even with Y-adapter. bottom line: USB is specified for 500mA at MAX, and even this needs intelligent host (alias charger). Everything beyond has to have some intelligence with it, either the one of the user not messing with chargemode, or the one of OM-designers creating and checking for a proprietary way to signal 500mA charger capabilities (=48k). (PS: For the record: If i got this right, the 48k even means I'm a charger and I can do *2*(!)A, just GTA02 can't take more than 1A. This might change for GTA0x!) HTH cheers your friendly engineer jOERG Am Do 27. März 2008 schrieb steve: Thanks Kevin, I recall asking engineering what would happen if somebody disabled this check ( hey its open source) and the general impression was that if the charger was not capable of fast charging then you would not have nice outcomes. I think the worse case might be if you tried to draw more than 500ma from a PC USB. Somebody not in marketing should answer that question. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Dean Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 12:22 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Cc: steve Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 2:58 PM, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Correct, it checks for 48k-OHM resistor on ID-pin of mini-USB, then enables 1A instead of 100/500mA USB-standard. You also may enable 1A-mode (and 500mA mode) via some small GUI-app IIRC. This is possible via userspace with Bobby's application. (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CheckFastCharge-script). However, the flaw to this is that it will force fast charge even if the charger isn't capable and hints that this could be... bad. :) For the record, it APPEARS that with the Python application, the iGo works just fine as a charger. -Kevin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community
RE: The problem with non-standard USB charging (was: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts)
Ya this nailed it for me. thx Michael. -Original Message- From: joerg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 11:43 AM To: Michael Shiloh Cc: List for Openmoko community discussion; steve Subject: Re: The problem with non-standard USB charging (was: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts) Michel, this is a perfect description of the current situation. You have to wear the t-shirt yourself! :-) cherrs jOERG Am Fr 28. März 2008 schrieb Michael Shiloh: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the big problem is that there is no standard for reporting current capacity other than the USB protocol, which is not supported by dumb chargers. What this means is that the various tricks that we and others play (shorting unused data pins, adding resistors of specific values between two pins, etc.) are all completely non-standard meaning there is no agreement between manufacturers and most importantly NO PROM iSE THAT FUTURE DEVICES OF THE SAME MODEL NUMBER WILL USE THE SAME TECHNIQUE! In other words we could test a given Motorola charger today, find that they have a resistor of value x between two pins, write the code to test for this value and then bump up the current draw to the value that we know the Motorola charger can provide. But then next month Motorola might change the value of this resistor. They might send a firmware update over the air to all their phones to make existing phones compatible with the new charger. We, of course, do not get this update, and suddenly the charger that we had tested no longer works. For a good example of this problem see Lady Ada's discussion on her Minty Boost. You will see a string of reports from people saying they needed to modify the resistor value and/or location in order to get Minty Boost to work with different models of iPods. And any solution is always temporary, until Apple changes something and then the resistor must change again. Thus the only way we can guarantee safe charging at higher than the USB maximum of 500mA is with our own charger. I would love to see a technical report, a white paper, written on this issue. Would anyone like to take on the challenge? Winner gets an Openmoko t-shirt (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SWAG) Michael Kevin Dean wrote: O community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Maybe I just create a spares product? with 3 batteries, and some other goodies thrown in? What goodies would go in that bag? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ian douglas Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:19 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts Wolfgang Spraul wrote: There are lots of clones of these Nokia batteries, we bought a few and can give you the names. But basically anything BL-4C, BL-5C, BL-6C compatible should work. Just my $0.02 here, but: *Should* work, or *definitely* work? I'd rather not buy a 'maybe' battery and would rather buy a branded battery direct from OM... But if enough people test these BL-?C batteries and prove they work just fine and nobody has any incidents related to a Nokia battery, then okay, I'll look for a local vendor selling them if I need a spare battery. I ran into the same issue with my iRiver digital music player, I needed a replacement, but iRiver didn't make this model any more so after-market batteries were all that were left. In the end, an iPod replacement battery did the job, but the polarity on the jumper header needed to be switched before plugging it in and reassembling the case. I only ordered the battery once I'd read about 20 personal accounts that, yeah, this particular battery worked just fine, no incidents. Just the 'realist' in me coming out to play. :o) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
I dont believe the replacements have the columb counter. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joerg Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:05 PM To: Clare Johnstone; List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts Am Mi 26. März 2008 schrieb clare: On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Wolfgang Spraul wrote: This is pretty much finished on my end. Nokia BL-6C. Allen Lin did tests (we could only get BL-5C so far, also works). There are lots of clones of these Nokia batteries, we bought a few and can give you the names. But basically anything BL-4C, BL-5C, BL-6C compatible should work. Wolfgang on the GTA01v4 they work but will not charge. Is it different on FReeRunner? They *might* charge better in GTA02 (i guess not tested yet), and they won't deliver same telemetry you get from GTA02's smart-bat coloumb-counter (see wiki). jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
steve schrieb: Maybe I just create a spares product? with 3 batteries, and some other goodies thrown in? What goodies would go in that bag? Well, if would have to decide I would like to see a spare LCD/touch kit. The LCD is the most (mechanically) sensitive part and thus the easiest to break. If you look at ebay the best selling spare parts for other mobile phones are the LCDs - put it in your trouser's back pocket and sit on it - crack. Next after that is probably the battery cover - after some open/close cycles it might not close firmly anymore or the ears might simply break off accidentially. Cheers nils faerber -- kernel concepts GbRTel: +49-271-771091-12 Sieghuetter Hauptweg 48Fax: +49-271-771091-19 D-57072 Siegen Mob: +49-176-21024535 -- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Hi Kevin, Libertarian as well here. The first charger I want to test is my iGo as well. A while back I discussed the fast charging issue with Engineering. I'll revisit that issue and get back to you guys. My understanding ( rememeber I'm marketing and have been appropriately lobotomized) is that our device checks the ID of the charger and then determines whether or not we can fast charge. ( greater than 750ma I think... ) Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Dean Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 9:17 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts National warranties aside (I'm a libertarian...) I see certifying aftermarket accessories as a crucial step for Openmoko, or at the v ery least picking ONE that works well with a Neo/Freerunner device. I recently purchased an iGo charger in the USA that claimed it could charger a 100, 500 or 1000 mA device and it can't. :P I'm out $40, which isn't crucial to me, but it's a sum that is large enough to regret paying when a $10 charger would be equally effective. I don't want to veer too far off topic but third-party accessories and battery life are directly tied IMO. As long as the battery life suck on the Neo/Freerunner people will need chargers for the device, and as long as a working fast-charge charger doesn't exist, it will be construed as bad planning. -Kevin Dean On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:18 PM, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wolfgang Spraul wrote: There are lots of clones of these Nokia batteries, we bought a few and can give you the names. But basically anything BL-4C, BL-5C, BL-6C compatible should work. Just my $0.02 here, but: *Should* work, or *definitely* work? I'd rather not buy a 'maybe' battery and would rather buy a branded battery direct from OM... But if enough people test these BL-?C batteries and prove they work just fine and nobody has any incidents related to a Nokia battery, then okay, I'll look for a local vendor selling them if I need a spare battery. I ran into the same issue with my iRiver digital music player, I needed a replacement, but iRiver didn't make this model any more so after-market batteries were all that were left. In the end, an iPod replacement battery did the job, but the polarity on the jumper header needed to be switched before plugging it in and reassembling the case. I only ordered the battery once I'd read about 20 personal accounts that, yeah, this particular battery worked just fine, no incidents. Just the 'realist' in me coming out to play. :o) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
I've been using my GTA01 as my regular phone for quite a while and I've got some chips, a crease and a dim spot on the screen where I always tapped it to bring the back light on. Having spare LCDs would be a good idea. Quoting Nils Faerber [EMAIL PROTECTED]: steve schrieb: Maybe I just create a spares product? with 3 batteries, and some other goodies thrown in? What goodies would go in that bag? Well, if would have to decide I would like to see a spare LCD/touch kit. The LCD is the most (mechanically) sensitive part and thus the easiest to break. If you look at ebay the best selling spare parts for other mobile phones are the LCDs - put it in your trouser's back pocket and sit on it - crack. Next after that is probably the battery cover - after some open/close cycles it might not close firmly anymore or the ears might simply break off accidentially. Cheers nils faerber -- kernel concepts GbRTel: +49-271-771091-12 Sieghuetter Hauptweg 48Fax: +49-271-771091-19 D-57072 Siegen Mob: +49-176-21024535 -- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: headphone (was: RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts)
Will, On the web shop and the wiki I would like to see a list of suitable replacements for the batteries ( nokia bl4,5,6 and clones) the charger, the stylus, the headsets. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joerg Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 8:13 AM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Cc: Marcus Bauer Subject: Re: headphone (was: RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts) Am Mi 26. März 2008 schrieb Marcus Bauer: On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 18:58 -0700, steve wrote: But onto your specifics: 4. Headsets. Its a standard part. Hi Steve, I looked on the wiki pages but can't find the specs. As nokia headsets with a 2.5mm plug don't work (different wiring and impedance) there are apparently several standards for headsets. Can you tell us which wiring the jack uses and what impedance the earplugs have? I already did this somewhere in wiki, IIRC. Wait a moment, I'll have a look where to find it. jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | I'm marketing and have been appropriately lobotomized) is that our device | checks the ID of the charger and then determines whether or not we can fast | charge. ( greater than 750ma I think... ) Right, but Matt improved this recently so it should push a full 1A in there if you use the wallsocket charger, otherwise 200 - 300mA from laptop / PC USB goes to charging. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkfr3MgACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpE9wCfUFhJ7xdyjNjryhYtBZ3R21q5 D/4An1CqKgp0XfvNhyPcHm+0CDEEJhkb =5tDr -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
On Donnerstag, 27. März 2008, steve wrote: Maybe I just create a spares product? with 3 batteries, and some other goodies thrown in? What goodies would go in that bag? In one of the first announcements there was a car holder (including a car charger). Do they still/already exist? cheers - homyx ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
If the goal is to have only one kind of spares kit, I would put in: 1-2 batteries (100% original) 1 battery cover (100% original) 1 USB charger (if that is a special one) no LCD no other components (e.g. no USB cables, memory chips, they are commodity) I think resellers can put 2 or 3 devices aside to extract other parts like LCDs or PCBs for repair. They are quite expensive parts anyway so the difference to a full Neo becomes smaller. Am 27.03.2008 um 17:42 schrieb steve: Maybe I just create a spares product? with 3 batteries, and some other goodies thrown in? What goodies would go in that bag? Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Am Do 27. März 2008 schrieb steve: Hi Kevin, Libertarian as well here. The first charger I want to test is my iGo as well. A while back I discussed the fast charging issue with Engineering. I'll revisit that issue and get back to you guys. My understanding ( rememeber I'm marketing and have been appropriately lobotomized) is that our device checks the ID of the charger and then determines whether or not we can fast charge. ( greater than 750ma I think... ) Steve Correct, it checks for 48k-OHM resistor on ID-pin of mini-USB, then enables 1A instead of 100/500mA USB-standard. You also may enable 1A-mode (and 500mA mode) via some small GUI-app IIRC. cheers jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
That's exactly what i wrote... Am Do 27. März 2008 schrieb steve: I dont believe the replacements have the columb counter. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joerg Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:05 PM To: Clare Johnstone; List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts Am Mi 26. März 2008 schrieb clare: On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Wolfgang Spraul wrote: This is pretty much finished on my end. Nokia BL-6C. Allen Lin did tests (we could only get BL-5C so far, also works). There are lots of clones of these Nokia batteries, we bought a few and can give you the names. But basically anything BL-4C, BL-5C, BL-6C compatible should work. Wolfgang on the GTA01v4 they work but will not charge. Is it different on FReeRunner? They *might* charge better in GTA02 (i guess not tested yet), and they won't deliver same telemetry you get from GTA02's smart-bat coloumb-counter (see wiki). jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 2:58 PM, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Correct, it checks for 48k-OHM resistor on ID-pin of mini-USB, then enables 1A instead of 100/500mA USB-standard. You also may enable 1A-mode (and 500mA mode) via some small GUI-app IIRC. This is possible via userspace with Bobby's application. (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CheckFastCharge-script). However, the flaw to this is that it will force fast charge even if the charger isn't capable and hints that this could be... bad. :) For the record, it APPEARS that with the Python application, the iGo works just fine as a charger. -Kevin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
I was just about to ask, what would happen if I enabled 1A charging when the Freerunner was plugged into a normal USB port? AFAIK some devices do draw more then spec (USB laptop hdds come to mind), and these seem to work fine. Cheers Federico On 3/27/08, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 2:58 PM, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Correct, it checks for 48k-OHM resistor on ID-pin of mini-USB, then enables 1A instead of 100/500mA USB-standard. You also may enable 1A-mode (and 500mA mode) via some small GUI-app IIRC. This is possible via userspace with Bobby's application. (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CheckFastCharge-script). However, the flaw to this is that it will force fast charge even if the charger isn't capable and hints that this could be... bad. :) For the record, it APPEARS that with the Python application, the iGo works just fine as a charger. -Kevin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
ok, let me noodle on this a bit. I have some ideas. -Original Message- From: Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 11:41 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Cc: steve Mosher Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts If the goal is to have only one kind of spares kit, I would put in: 1-2 batteries (100% original) 1 battery cover (100% original) 1 USB charger (if that is a special one) no LCD no other components (e.g. no USB cables, memory chips, they are commodity) I think resellers can put 2 or 3 devices aside to extract other parts like LCDs or PCBs for repair. They are quite expensive parts anyway so the difference to a full Neo becomes smaller. Am 27.03.2008 um 17:42 schrieb steve: Maybe I just create a spares product? with 3 batteries, and some other goodies thrown in? What goodies would go in that bag? Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Thanks, At one point I suggested that an ingenious person might change this particular resistor check so that other chargers would work in fast mode ( if they were capable) I can't recall where that discussion ended up. So for example, My moto mini usb is 850ma, So I would just turn off the software resistor check plug it into my moto charger and ?? not blow it up?? The open source aspect of this, of course creates opportunities and dangers. lets keep the discussion going. My goal is not to turn Openmoko into a supplier of expensive chargers. We would rather leverage what is already out there. my moto charger was outrageous; I got the Igo for free a long while back when they first started, so hey cant beat that. your thoughts, always appreciated -Original Message- From: joerg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 11:59 AM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Cc: steve Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts Am Do 27. März 2008 schrieb steve: Hi Kevin, Libertarian as well here. The first charger I want to test is my iGo as well. A while back I discussed the fast charging issue with Engineering. I'll revisit that issue and get back to you guys. My understanding ( rememeber I'm marketing and have been appropriately lobotomized) is that our device checks the ID of the charger and then determines whether or not we can fast charge. ( greater than 750ma I think... ) Steve Correct, it checks for 48k-OHM resistor on ID-pin of mini-USB, then enables 1A instead of 100/500mA USB-standard. You also may enable 1A-mode (and 500mA mode) via some small GUI-app IIRC. cheers jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Thanks Kevin, I recall asking engineering what would happen if somebody disabled this check ( hey its open source) and the general impression was that if the charger was not capable of fast charging then you would not have nice outcomes. I think the worse case might be if you tried to draw more than 500ma from a PC USB. Somebody not in marketing should answer that question. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Dean Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 12:22 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Cc: steve Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 2:58 PM, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Correct, it checks for 48k-OHM resistor on ID-pin of mini-USB, then enables 1A instead of 100/500mA USB-standard. You also may enable 1A-mode (and 500mA mode) via some small GUI-app IIRC. This is possible via userspace with Bobby's application. (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CheckFastCharge-script). However, the flaw to this is that it will force fast charge even if the charger isn't capable and hints that this could be... bad. :) For the record, it APPEARS that with the Python application, the iGo works just fine as a charger. -Kevin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Somebody in the thread at some point said: Thanks Kevin, I recall asking engineering what would happen if somebody disabled this check ( hey its open source) and the general impression was that if the charger was not capable of fast charging then you would not have nice outcomes. I think the worse case might be if you tried to draw more than 500ma from a PC USB. Somebody not in marketing should answer that question. If you start poking at registers in kernelspace or via /sys you can make it think it is on a charger and try to pull 1A. But in normal operation it takes care to look for the special 48K resistor on the ID pin which is found on the real charger before allowing it. So you have to go around that check to make trouble. Every USB host I ever saw has a high side switch and current limit implemented anyway, if you pull much more than you are allowed (often simply 500mA) it goes into overcurrent and turns off the tap. Since we talk about random nonstandard meddling (ie, this isn't the product's own behaviour) you can just put a bent paperclip in the USB host socket and do much better than 1A if that wasn't the case :-) -Andy ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Depends on the USB port. You may end up blowing some protection on your motherboard, or worse. OTOH it may be just fine - my HP laptop has one port rated at 2A to power external DVD and HDD. Most devices that draw 500mA have a Y-cable so they can pull power from 2 sockets. On Thursday 27 March 2008, Federico Lorenzi wrote: I was just about to ask, what would happen if I enabled 1A charging when the Freerunner was plugged into a normal USB port? AFAIK some devices do draw more then spec (USB laptop hdds come to mind), and these seem to work fine. Cheers Federico ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Userspace app for fast charge (was Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts)
I just want to make it clear: my python userspace app (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CheckFastCharge-script) *won't* automatically send you into fast charge mode. It automatically *asks* you if you want to go into fast charge mode whenever a slow charger is recognized. It also goes through a (annoying, but I think necessary) confirmation sequence before it goes into fast charge mode. It also knows nothing about GTA02. It just sends a fastcccv to the charger. I assume on the 02 that still just makes it pull 500 mA, not 1000? (Kevin, I know that you know all this, but at one point in the thread it looked as if someone was saying my app would automatically force fast charge.) Bobby From: steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Kevin Dean' [EMAIL PROTECTED], 'List for Openmoko community discussion' community@lists.openmoko.org Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:02:46 -0700 Subject: RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts Thanks Kevin, I recall asking engineering what would happen if somebody disabled this check ( hey its open source) and the general impression was that if the charger was not capable of fast charging then you would not have nice outcomes. I think the worse case might be if you tried to draw more than 500ma from a PC USB. Somebody not in marketing should answer that question. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Dean Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 12:22 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Cc: steve Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 2:58 PM, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Correct, it checks for 48k-OHM resistor on ID-pin of mini-USB, then enables 1A instead of 100/500mA USB-standard. You also may enable 1A-mode (and 500mA mode) via some small GUI-app IIRC. This is possible via userspace with Bobby's application. (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CheckFastCharge-script). However, the flaw to this is that it will force fast charge even if the charger isn't capable and hints that this could be... bad. :) For the record, it APPEARS that with the Python application, the iGo works just fine as a charger. -Kevin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
High current USB charging ( was: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts)
(PLEASE CHANGE SUBJECT WHEN TOPIC CHANGES!) I don't think the Neo would get damaged. I think the only damage might occur to the charger, whether the charger is a computer or a charger only. A charger (or computer) designed to provide, say, 200mA might overheat if more that 200mA is drawn, possibly resulting in a component failure. In the worst case, something in the charger gets extremely hot but does not fail (or does not fail quickly), resulting in the possibility of a fire. So if you enable (force) 1A charging when plugged into a computer USB port which can not supply 1A (which most can't), then you run the very real possibility of damaging your computer. Michael Federico Lorenzi wrote: I was just about to ask, what would happen if I enabled 1A charging when the Freerunner was plugged into a normal USB port? AFAIK some devices do draw more then spec (USB laptop hdds come to mind), and these seem to work fine. Cheers Federico On 3/27/08, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 2:58 PM, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Correct, it checks for 48k-OHM resistor on ID-pin of mini-USB, then enables 1A instead of 100/500mA USB-standard. You also may enable 1A-mode (and 500mA mode) via some small GUI-app IIRC. This is possible via userspace with Bobby's application. (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CheckFastCharge-script). However, the flaw to this is that it will force fast charge even if the charger isn't capable and hints that this could be... bad. :) For the record, it APPEARS that with the Python application, the iGo works just fine as a charger. -Kevin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Engineering says: you can't have both, 1A charging _and_ protection for every case of missmanagement (DAU, stupid user). USB is specified for 500mA MAX. Period! (and devices have even to announce when they want more than 100mA). Anyway a stupid charger consisting of a transformer, a diode bridge, and at best some 5V-regulator, usually doesn't know of *any* announcement via USB-protocol regarding 100-500mA (it probably has only 2 of the 4 wires it needs for *real* USB). So the situation is (or to be clear: SHOULD BE. This has to be checked carefully for Freerunner, cause there are indications it's not at least like this) connect any charger: - - NEO will take no more than 100mA (actually 200-300mA, BUG! (AFAIK)) have intelligent host (PC) OR set charge mode to 500mA by GUI applet: - - NEO will take no more than 500mA (yet to be tested?) connect original OM-charger (with 47K resistor) OR set charge mode to 1000mA by GUI applet (not yet implemented?): - - NEO will take no more than 1A (PMU 50633 limit) (this seems to work, more or less) Alas there is *absolutely* *NO* way for NEO though to tell when your braindead 850mA charger will start to slowly melt down overnight when you set 1A charge mode via applet. It's very unlikely there will ever be any trouble other than very rare occasional broken chargers, but we just can't guarantee it's safe, for nobody knows all the chargers in this world. However it's not our fault when sth really bad is happening, for every charger/host is supposed to be short-circuit safe (mustn't burn, otherwise probably mustn't be sold), and it's the USER who has to think *before* enabling 1A mode. Hey guys, when connecting your 110V device to a 230V outlet in Europe, whom do you blame for the smoke?! For the Y-cables to connect to 2 USB-hostports: these are absolute fake, they don't balance the current in any manner, so if one port is blowfused (cause it once was strong) or it is weak, or dead, or disabled, the whole surge goes to the other stronger port (Blam!). And these Y-cables not even do correct negotiation for at least 500mA per port!!! So with these Y-cables, all you can safely expect are no more 100mA! Everything beyond breaks specs again. I (for own use) will check the writing on my charger, then guess whether it's reasonably safe to enable 500mA or 1A, and maybe come back after 10 min to check whether it's still charging and charger does not start to smell. For PC USB-hosts I have no problem to force 500mA (though this should be nonsense because will happen automatically), and i will *never* try 1A, not even with Y-adapter. bottom line: USB is specified for 500mA at MAX, and even this needs intelligent host (alias charger). Everything beyond has to have some intelligence with it, either the one of the user not messing with chargemode, or the one of OM-designers creating and checking for a proprietary way to signal 500mA charger capabilities (=48k). (PS: For the record: If i got this right, the 48k even means I'm a charger and I can do *2*(!)A, just GTA02 can't take more than 1A. This might change for GTA0x!) HTH cheers your friendly engineer jOERG Am Do 27. März 2008 schrieb steve: Thanks Kevin, I recall asking engineering what would happen if somebody disabled this check ( hey its open source) and the general impression was that if the charger was not capable of fast charging then you would not have nice outcomes. I think the worse case might be if you tried to draw more than 500ma from a PC USB. Somebody not in marketing should answer that question. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Dean Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 12:22 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Cc: steve Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 2:58 PM, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Correct, it checks for 48k-OHM resistor on ID-pin of mini-USB, then enables 1A instead of 100/500mA USB-standard. You also may enable 1A-mode (and 500mA mode) via some small GUI-app IIRC. This is possible via userspace with Bobby's application. (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CheckFastCharge-script). However, the flaw to this is that it will force fast charge even if the charger isn't capable and hints that this could be... bad. :) For the record, it APPEARS that with the Python application, the iGo works just fine as a charger. -Kevin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Userspace app for fast charge (was Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts)
Am Do 27. März 2008 schrieb Bobby Martin: I just want to make it clear: my python userspace app (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CheckFastCharge-script) *won't* automatically send you into fast charge mode. It automatically *asks* you if you want to go into fast charge mode whenever a slow charger is recognized. It also goes through a (annoying, but I think necessary) confirmation sequence before it goes into fast charge mode. It also knows nothing about GTA02. It just sends a fastcccv to the charger. I assume on the 02 that still just makes it pull 500 mA, not 1000? Do we have a /dev/* interface (or other means) to *finetune* maximum USB current - e.g. for 750mA chargers? I don't know if the PMU does support such finetuning, or if there are just step increments (i'm just too lazy to check, right this moment). Just want to share the idea... ;-) jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Steve, Right, they don't. Wolfgang On Mar 28, 2008, at 1:04 AM, steve wrote: I don’t believe the replacements have the columb counter. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joerg Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:05 PM To: Clare Johnstone; List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts Am Mi 26. März 2008 schrieb clare: On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Wolfgang Spraul wrote: This is pretty much finished on my end. Nokia BL-6C. Allen Lin did tests (we could only get BL-5C so far, also works). There are lots of clones of these Nokia batteries, we bought a few and can give you the names. But basically anything BL-4C, BL-5C, BL-6C compatible should work. Wolfgang on the GTA01v4 they work but will not charge. Is it different on FReeRunner? They *might* charge better in GTA02 (i guess not tested yet), and they won't deliver same telemetry you get from GTA02's smart-bat coloumb- counter (see wiki). jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Le lundi 24 mars 2008 à 16:00 -0700, steve a écrit : I thought about spare parts a while back. The Issue is this. 1. WHAT do I stock ( which parts) 2. How Many do I stock? 3. How do I sell them to you? 4. What will it cost? 5. how do you get them? I suppose I could Offer component kits for sale. That would be the quickest thing for me to do. Sell the whole bag of parts; fix it your self. or build a business around this service. Hi Steve, As resellers of few products, we always share this information between resellers and the global manufacturer. This kind of risk should be shared between Openmoko and resellers, and they need a good communication to share statistics about returns and defect parts. Now, about shipping, spare parts ordering and cost, you probably need to setup a kind of extranet where the resellers will find the special price, customer's price, qty and where to get them (from a local hub). Best regards -- Alexandre ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
headphone (was: RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts)
On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 18:58 -0700, steve wrote: But onto your specifics: 4. Headsets. It’s a standard part. Hi Steve, I looked on the wiki pages but can't find the specs. As nokia headsets with a 2.5mm plug don't work (different wiring and impedance) there are apparently several standards for headsets. Can you tell us which wiring the jack uses and what impedance the earplugs have? thanks marcus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: headphone (was: RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts)
Am Mi 26. März 2008 schrieb Marcus Bauer: On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 18:58 -0700, steve wrote: But onto your specifics: 4. Headsets. It’s a standard part. Hi Steve, I looked on the wiki pages but can't find the specs. As nokia headsets with a 2.5mm plug don't work (different wiring and impedance) there are apparently several standards for headsets. Can you tell us which wiring the jack uses and what impedance the earplugs have? I already did this somewhere in wiki, IIRC. Wait a moment, I'll have a look where to find it. jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: headphone (was: RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts)
Am Mi 26. März 2008 schrieb Marcus Bauer: On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 18:58 -0700, steve wrote: But onto your specifics: 4. Headsets. It’s a standard part. Hi Steve, I looked on the wiki pages but can't find the specs. As nokia headsets with a 2.5mm plug don't work (different wiring and impedance) there are apparently several standards for headsets. Can you tell us which wiring the jack uses and what impedance the earplugs have? [from a previous msg in this list] Am Di 4. März 2008 schrieb Gilles Casse: Hi all, I am a little bit embarrassed: my audio headset is lost, another one bought recently is not compatible (a 4 ring model for a Nokia, the [...] base = ground speaker left (internal impedance 33R) to ground. (+jackinsert detection) speaker right (internal impedance 33R) to ground. tip = mic electret condenser type, to ground. bias (power for mic) 2K2 from +3.3v(wolfson codec) (+HoldButton shortcircuit to ground) Due to the internal 33R resistors, any low impedance headset will not work (or only low sound). I guess 40R should be minimum impedance for the speakers. cheers jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
joerg wrote: AFAIK, the BL-?C will fit and power the device, but like bat for GTA01 they have no telemetry (smart bat). So you won't get a bat-fuel-indicator with nokia bat. Charging isn't quite tested i think. That's an important thing imho...! Then I've read a thread on the kernel list some time ago and the lasting time of the non-FIC batteries was quite lower! -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Hi Steve, There is a different between countries. It's a legal (rules and regulations) issue. in my county you can not seal a devises without the ability to seal spare parts. The regulator must to make sure that you have the ability to support the costumers (include hardware maintenance and support) its mean that any distributor / reseller need to hold a spare parts in stock (or to make sure that he have a continuous supply of spare parts) for 3 years after the date the costumer buy a device . - doron steve wrote: I thought about spare parts a while back. The Issue is this. 1. WHAT do I stock ( which parts) 2. How Many do I stock? 3. How do I sell them to you? 4. What will it cost? 5. how do you get them? I suppose I could Offer component kits for sale. That would be the quickest thing for me to do. Sell the whole bag of parts; fix it your self. or build a business around this service. Let me think about it. Throw rotten fruit at this idea if you like. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of joerg Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Price of the Freerunner spare parts Am So 23. März 2008 schrieb Sean Moss-Pultz: We will have our own hub in the EU. Neos will move directly from our factory to that hub. What's about availability and pricing of spare parts like LCM, battery, housing? Will there be any repair service? cheers jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- http://www.ofek.biz P Save a tree...please don't print this e-mail ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Thomas, The logistical difficulty in stocking distributors with spare parts is a very large uncertainity. The fundamental problem is having a spare parts usage model. or consumption model. That is, a model, an estimate, of how many parts to spare. This comes with time and experience. In the beginning people always guess wrong. It also requires estimates of repair costs which no one has. If I had to guess, based on my experience with other products, I would say that the cost of shipping, parts,and repair would exceed the replacement costs in a substantial number of cases. But onto your specifics: 1. Batteries. We will have a Battery replacement that you can purchase without coming back to us or our disty. The replacements will be standard parts. 2. Stylus. again, we are going the open route. Nothing proprietary about our stylus. 3. Front and back covers? I would no clue whatsoever how many to sell to disty. and what would he do with the unsold ones? I suppose I could offer bags of plastic parts for sale on the web, but its a huge amount of trouble for very little benefit. 4. Headsets. Its a standard part. 5. Pouches: there are plenty of third party suppliers of these. 6. Charger. I have also pushed for a standard charger. basically so guys can use stock USB chargers. If I put Spare parts at the Hub, The cost of shipping them back and forth and the uncertainty in demand would force me to price a spare screen, for example, at the cost of phone. Why, because a spare screen in the hub does no good if it goes unsold. How long do I keep it there? in the factory, I turn it into a phone. Sitting in the hub, its a doorstop. Who pays to keep it there? Do I spare 10%, what if only 5% get used. Who owns the leftover screens? do I pass those costs on everyone? Steve _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of thomasg Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 6:17 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts I think spare parts are things that should be available via the distributors. 1. What: there are some parts everybody needs to replace or restock at some point: battery (very important), stylus (not really important), front/back-cover (moderately important), headsets, pouches, cables/chargers (reasonably important) 2. How many: see importance (1.) for relative numbers 3. Bigger stocks for distributors, no direct selling in small numbers 4. Make it cheap :P 5. Same as (3.) I guess there are many people who need at least spare batteries and some who'd like to have extra pouches (me! :), so this are things that should be offered to the customers. The effort and prices can be reasonable by only selling larger numbers. Additional spare parts like displays, antennas and so on could be available in smaller number at the local hubs, so resellers can get it for their customers if really needed. On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 12:00 AM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought about spare parts a while back. The Issue is this. 1. WHAT do I stock ( which parts) 2. How Many do I stock? 3. How do I sell them to you? 4. What will it cost? 5. how do you get them? I suppose I could Offer component kits for sale. That would be the quickest thing for me to do. Sell the whole bag of parts; fix it your self. or build a business around this service. Let me think about it. Throw rotten fruit at this idea if you like. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joerg Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Price of the Freerunner spare parts Am So 23. März 2008 schrieb Sean Moss-Pultz: We will have our own hub in the EU. Neos will move directly from our factory to that hub. What's about availability and pricing of spare parts like LCM, battery, housing? Will there be any repair service? cheers jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
On Batteries. The battery should be a commodity. as easy to purchase as a AA at your local shop or over the web. So, I've asked Engineering to supply me with a list of replacement batteries that anybody can go out and buy from their local shop or the web. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marcus Bauer Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:40 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 16:00 -0700, steve wrote: I thought about spare parts a while back. The Issue is this. 1. WHAT do I stock ( which parts) batteries 2. How Many do I stock? thousands ;-) 3. How do I sell them to you? via the resellers 4. What will it cost? free as in beer :°) 5. how do you get them? by postal service :) I suppose I could Offer component kits for sale. That would be the quickest thing for me to do. Sell the whole bag of parts; fix it your self. or build a business around this service. Let me think about it. Throw rotten fruit at this idea if you like. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Interesting, Which country? how is the list of spare parts determined? A simple question. If you sell a flashlight that takes standard batteries must you hold a stock of 3 years of spare batteries for all your customers? Or if you sell a car must hold 3 years of spare tires in stock for all the customers? If you sell a Lamp, do you hold 3 years of light bulbs as spares? basically, this goes to the definition of spare part. Im curious how they define it. Steve _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ofek Doron [Ofek BIZ] Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 1:12 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts Hi Steve, There is a different between countries. It's a legal (rules and regulations) issue. in my county you can not seal a devises without the ability to seal spare parts. The regulator must to make sure that you have the ability to support the costumers (include hardware maintenance and support) its mean that any distributor / reseller need to hold a spare parts in stock (or to make sure that he have a continuous supply of spare parts) for 3 years after the date the costumer buy a device . - doron steve wrote: I thought about spare parts a while back. The Issue is this. 1. WHAT do I stock ( which parts) 2. How Many do I stock? 3. How do I sell them to you? 4. What will it cost? 5. how do you get them? I suppose I could Offer component kits for sale. That would be the quickest thing for me to do. Sell the whole bag of parts; fix it your self. or build a business around this service. Let me think about it. Throw rotten fruit at this idea if you like. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joerg Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Price of the Freerunner spare parts Am So 23. März 2008 schrieb Sean Moss-Pultz: We will have our own hub in the EU. Neos will move directly from our factory to that hub. What's about availability and pricing of spare parts like LCM, battery, housing? Will there be any repair service? cheers jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- http://www.ofek.biz P Save a tree...please don't print this e-mail image001.gif___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Wolfgang Spraul wrote: There are lots of clones of these Nokia batteries, we bought a few and can give you the names. But basically anything BL-4C, BL-5C, BL-6C compatible should work. Just my $0.02 here, but: *Should* work, or *definitely* work? I'd rather not buy a 'maybe' battery and would rather buy a branded battery direct from OM... But if enough people test these BL-?C batteries and prove they work just fine and nobody has any incidents related to a Nokia battery, then okay, I'll look for a local vendor selling them if I need a spare battery. I ran into the same issue with my iRiver digital music player, I needed a replacement, but iRiver didn't make this model any more so after-market batteries were all that were left. In the end, an iPod replacement battery did the job, but the polarity on the jumper header needed to be switched before plugging it in and reassembling the case. I only ordered the battery once I'd read about 20 personal accounts that, yeah, this particular battery worked just fine, no incidents. Just the 'realist' in me coming out to play. :o) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Am Mi 26. März 2008 schrieb ian douglas: Wolfgang Spraul wrote: There are lots of clones of these Nokia batteries, we bought a few and can give you the names. But basically anything BL-4C, BL-5C, BL-6C compatible should work. Just my $0.02 here, but: *Should* work, or *definitely* work? I'd rather not buy a 'maybe' battery and would rather buy a branded battery direct from OM... AFAIK, the BL-?C will fit and power the device, but like bat for GTA01 they have no telemetry (smart bat). So you won't get a bat-fuel-indicator with nokia bat. Charging isn't quite tested i think. jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
National warranties aside (I'm a libertarian...) I see certifying aftermarket accessories as a crucial step for Openmoko, or at the v ery least picking ONE that works well with a Neo/Freerunner device. I recently purchased an iGo charger in the USA that claimed it could charger a 100, 500 or 1000 mA device and it can't. :P I'm out $40, which isn't crucial to me, but it's a sum that is large enough to regret paying when a $10 charger would be equally effective. I don't want to veer too far off topic but third-party accessories and battery life are directly tied IMO. As long as the battery life suck on the Neo/Freerunner people will need chargers for the device, and as long as a working fast-charge charger doesn't exist, it will be construed as bad planning. -Kevin Dean On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:18 PM, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wolfgang Spraul wrote: There are lots of clones of these Nokia batteries, we bought a few and can give you the names. But basically anything BL-4C, BL-5C, BL-6C compatible should work. Just my $0.02 here, but: *Should* work, or *definitely* work? I'd rather not buy a 'maybe' battery and would rather buy a branded battery direct from OM... But if enough people test these BL-?C batteries and prove they work just fine and nobody has any incidents related to a Nokia battery, then okay, I'll look for a local vendor selling them if I need a spare battery. I ran into the same issue with my iRiver digital music player, I needed a replacement, but iRiver didn't make this model any more so after-market batteries were all that were left. In the end, an iPod replacement battery did the job, but the polarity on the jumper header needed to be switched before plugging it in and reassembling the case. I only ordered the battery once I'd read about 20 personal accounts that, yeah, this particular battery worked just fine, no incidents. Just the 'realist' in me coming out to play. :o) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Wolfgang Spraul wrote: This is pretty much finished on my end. Nokia BL-6C. Allen Lin did tests (we could only get BL-5C so far, also works). There are lots of clones of these Nokia batteries, we bought a few and can give you the names. But basically anything BL-4C, BL-5C, BL-6C compatible should work. Wolfgang on the GTA01v4 they work but will not charge. Is it different on FReeRunner? clare ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Am Mi 26. März 2008 schrieb clare: On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Wolfgang Spraul wrote: This is pretty much finished on my end. Nokia BL-6C. Allen Lin did tests (we could only get BL-5C so far, also works). There are lots of clones of these Nokia batteries, we bought a few and can give you the names. But basically anything BL-4C, BL-5C, BL-6C compatible should work. Wolfgang on the GTA01v4 they work but will not charge. Is it different on FReeRunner? They *might* charge better in GTA02 (i guess not tested yet), and they won't deliver same telemetry you get from GTA02's smart-bat coloumb-counter (see wiki). jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
I thought about spare parts a while back. The Issue is this. 1. WHAT do I stock ( which parts) 2. How Many do I stock? 3. How do I sell them to you? 4. What will it cost? 5. how do you get them? I suppose I could Offer component kits for sale. That would be the quickest thing for me to do. Sell the whole bag of parts; fix it your self. or build a business around this service. Let me think about it. Throw rotten fruit at this idea if you like. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joerg Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Price of the Freerunner spare parts Am So 23. März 2008 schrieb Sean Moss-Pultz: We will have our own hub in the EU. Neos will move directly from our factory to that hub. What's about availability and pricing of spare parts like LCM, battery, housing? Will there be any repair service? cheers jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
I think spare parts are things that should be available via the distributors. 1. What: there are some parts everybody needs to replace or restock at some point: battery (very important), stylus (not really important), front/back-cover (moderately important), headsets, pouches, cables/chargers (reasonably important) 2. How many: see importance (1.) for relative numbers 3. Bigger stocks for distributors, no direct selling in small numbers 4. Make it cheap :P 5. Same as (3.) I guess there are many people who need at least spare batteries and some who'd like to have extra pouches (me! :), so this are things that should be offered to the customers. The effort and prices can be reasonable by only selling larger numbers. Additional spare parts like displays, antennas and so on could be available in smaller number at the local hubs, so resellers can get it for their customers if really needed. On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 12:00 AM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought about spare parts a while back. The Issue is this. 1. WHAT do I stock ( which parts) 2. How Many do I stock? 3. How do I sell them to you? 4. What will it cost? 5. how do you get them? I suppose I could Offer component kits for sale. That would be the quickest thing for me to do. Sell the whole bag of parts; fix it your self. or build a business around this service. Let me think about it. Throw rotten fruit at this idea if you like. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joerg Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Price of the Freerunner spare parts Am So 23. März 2008 schrieb Sean Moss-Pultz: We will have our own hub in the EU. Neos will move directly from our factory to that hub. What's about availability and pricing of spare parts like LCM, battery, housing? Will there be any repair service? cheers jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
Am Di 25. März 2008 schrieb steve: I thought about spare parts a while back. The Issue is this. 1. WHAT do I stock ( which parts) Obviously, NOT: Standard parts which are easily available elsewhere Parts which can't be replaced (chips) Parts too expensive in relation to cost of complete unit (mainboard) So it boils down to o- one set of complete housing plastics (maybe split if a special part breaks significantly more often than the others) o- LCM + associated parts o- battery o- accessories (charger/USB-host-power-adapter, headset, ...?) o- debug board / kit these should be available in reasonable quantity and pricing at your local (national) reseller o- other special parts (e.g. mini-usb to replace the one on mainboard, GSM/GPS antenna, screws / springs, flat cable etc) probably might be shipped once a month from Suzhou, prepaid - assuming this won't exceed 1 event/month per 5.000 units sold, for a figure of magnitude. More frequently needed parts shall migrate to reseller path. 2. How Many do I stock? ??? difficult question. Probably start of regular distribution GTA02 will yield some data after a couple of months. At this point in time there still should be sufficient production stock. 3. How do I sell them to you? The standard spare parts via resellers. Rarely needed parts via Suzhou, order by prepay. 4. What will it cost? Hmm, probably for Suzhou parts the costs of handling will exceed the price of the mere part. OTOH supplying spare parts is a service for customers to polish OM image, not a business. Many customers don't buy a device that's not backed by reasonable service and/or spare parts. 5. how do you get them? Wiki page with part descriptions and part numbers / price. Prepay by money order with part number + address. Surface delivery. cheers jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Price of the Freerunner spare parts
On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 16:00 -0700, steve wrote: I thought about spare parts a while back. The Issue is this. 1. WHAT do I stock ( which parts) batteries 2. How Many do I stock? thousands ;-) 3. How do I sell them to you? via the resellers 4. What will it cost? free as in beer :°) 5. how do you get them? by postal service :) I suppose I could Offer component kits for sale. That would be the quickest thing for me to do. Sell the whole bag of parts; fix it your self. or build a business around this service. Let me think about it. Throw rotten fruit at this idea if you like. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
