[Callers] Re: Surely thus dance has a name and author?

[Alex Burka via Contra Callers]

If I'm reading it right, The Plagiarist's Reel *is* what you started with
except for a meltdown swing instead of balance and swing in the middle.

On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 6:50 PM Julian Blechner 
wrote:

> Yeah, I was going to modify it to what I originally posted. It's the
> closest I found.
>
> If someone knows of anything closer, I'm ears!
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 5:02 PM Alex Burka via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Careful with Blizzard Chimney, it has a swing ending in the middle of the
>> phrase. Plagiarist's Reel is what came up in my search from your original
>> description, which is similar but without that issue.
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 2:58 PM Mac Mckeever via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> my favorite box circulate dance is DuQuoin Races by Orace Johnson from
>>> sometime around 1990
>>>
>>> Mac
>>>
>>> StLouis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, March 30, 2024 at 01:52:34 PM CDT, Julian Blechner via
>>> Contra Callers  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Okay, the Callers Box site didn't like 'circulate' in the middle of a
>>> line of text.
>>>
>>> Here we go:
>>>
>>> The Blizzard Chimney Contra
>>> by Geoff Cubitt
>>> Permission: full
>>> FormationBase: Duple Minor  -  Becket
>>> Progression: Single
>>> Direction: CW
>>> Figures:
>>> A1 (6) Circle left 3/4
>>> (2) Pass through along (NR)
>>> (8) N2 neighbor allemande right 1 & 1/2
>>> A2 (4) Balance long wave (N2R, men face in)
>>> (4) Circulate: Men cross, women loop right [with N2]
>>> (4) Balance long wave (PR, women face in)
>>> (4) Circulate: Women cross, men loop right [with N2]
>>> B1 (8) N2 neighbor swing
>>> (8) Men allemande left 1 & 1/2
>>> B2 (4) Partner balance
>>> (12) Partner swing
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 2:45 PM Julian Blechner <
>>> juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Yeah, it's pretty close.
>>> >
>>> > Side-note: Callers Box doesn't seem to like "circulate", which is why
>>> I asked here.
>>> >
>>> > I've been looking for solid Box Circulate dances that aren't the same
>>> 3 or 4, and are a tad easier so I can swap 'em in, or put them in a medley.
>>> >
>>> > This one's similar enough to a couple Rory dances as well.
>>> >
>>> > Any other close dances / matches?
>>> >
>>> > In dance,
>>> > Julian Blechner
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 2:16 PM Don Veino 
>>> wrote:
>>> >> Not exactly, but close... there's probably another that's closer?
>>> >>
>>> >> If I Fits, I Sits - Becket Left/CW - Don Veino 20231125
>>> >>
>>> >> A1 (left diagonal) Circle Left 3/4x, NBR Dosido 1+1/4x to wave/4
>>> >>
>>> >>  (RH to NBR on GNT/LRK home side)
>>> >>
>>> >> A2 Wave/4 Balance, Hinge 1/4, Box Circulate (GNT/LRK cross, LDY/RBN
>>> loop)
>>> >>
>>> >> Long Wave Balance, Box Circulate (LDY/RBN cross, GNT/LRK loop)
>>> >>
>>> >> B1 NBR Balance (or RSR) & Swing (at LDY/RBN home)
>>> >>
>>> >> B2 Give & Take to LDY/RBN (ALT: GNT/LRK ALM LT 1+1/2x), PNR Swing
>>> >>
>>> >> In my experience, the hinge to circulate here actually helps newer
>>> dancers get the loop right motion of the box circ. I was slightly concerned
>>> about that timing but it's danced well when called.
>>> >>
>>> >> -Don
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 1:17 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>> >>> Becket
>>> >>> A1. Circle L, Pass Thru N (or slide L to next and circle)
>>> >>> N Alle R 1 1/4 to long wavy line, Larks face out, Robins face in
>>> >>> A2. Bal, Circulate x2
>>> >>> B1. N B+S
>>> >>> B2. Larks Alle L 1.5x (or pull by)
>>> >>> PS
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ___
>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
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>>>
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[Callers] Digest

[Kathryn Bowman via Contra Callers]

Can I get a digest instead of individual emails?

Kathryn Bowman
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[Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info

[Chris Lahey via Contra Callers]

I'm thinking about it, but my likelihood of following through based on
interest and difficulty is probably single digit percentages.

The main reason is knowledge as Jeff said, but I do think we could improve
teaching if we had a deep knowledge of this stuff.

On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 15:45 Joe Harrington 
wrote:

> Are you actually thinking of doing this?  Why? Would it help anyone dance
> better? If someone does this kind of thing for work and could tap into
> those resources, it might be practical.  Otherwise, this looks like the
> kind of setup that would require significant thought, effort, and expense.
>
> One approach would be to green-suit up in a video-game studio, and then
> tap into the calculations that the game software uses to create game
> motions from human ones.  That wouldn't be measurements of forces directly,
> but it would be pretty comprehensive.  You'd know where all the momentum
> went and it would calculate transmitted forces through every surface, which
> you could sum for the hand and arm, etc.  They might also have force
> sensors of some sort.  Somebody must have, at some point in the development
> of those systems.
>
> --jh--
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 3:17 PM Chris Lahey  wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have any thoughts about how we can measure some of this? I
>> can definitely imagine a force pad on someone's back to measure the
>> tension, but I'm a bit lost as to how he can measure the ground forces
>> (including possibly torque around a vertical axis)?
>>
>> I think normal force should be easy. That can be built into a pad on the
>> ground if nothing else, but friction would be harder.
>>
>> Unless we had multiple pads each of which had force sensors in all 3 axes
>> (plus a rotational sensor) does anyone know how much such an apparatus
>> would cost to build?
>>
>> Now that I think about 3 axis force sensors, i wonder if there's much
>> lateral or vertical force in the connection point and whether I'd there is
>> that feels bad in some natural way.
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 13:37 Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Funny thing, I wrote the email below last Sunday and thought, do the
>>> world's callers really want a physics calculation on their mailing list?  I
>>> decided the better of it and didn't send it.  Ok, I guess I was wrong...
>>>
>>> What I call support is against centrifugal force, not vertical. Of
>>> course, there's no need to lift the other dancer, and it's a really poor
>>> idea.
>>>
>>> As Jeff pointed out, in a fast swing, there's a lot of centrifugal
>>> force, as seen from our rotating frame of reference in the swing.  For
>>> physics buffs, centrifugal force increases as the square of velocity, so a
>>> swing that goes around three times in 8 beats rather than twice (1.5x
>>> faster rotation, the first-level "fast swing") has 2.25 times as much
>>> outward force to support.  Estimating a 25 cm radius (about 50 cm between
>>> the centers of mass of the two dancers, in the middles of their abdomens,
>>> which I measured with a tape measure) and a 70 kg (150 lb) dancer, that's
>>> an outward force for each of the two bodies of almost 390 Newtons, or
>>> nearly 90 pounds.  Much of that will be borne by the friction between the
>>> dancer's feet and the floor, but the rest will be held by the supporting
>>> dancer(s).  How much depends on how they lean.  For a standard swing (2
>>> rotations per 8 beats), it's just under 40 lbs.  Fortunately, you only have
>>> to hold it for four to eight seconds at a time, or actually less as you
>>> accelerate and decelerate inside that time, though the peak force will then
>>> be higher.
>>>
>>> ...and now I add...
>>>
>>> Despite starting with it above, myself, I think we're somewhat
>>> misleading ourselves with this Mv**2/r calculation.
>>>
>>> The key thing here is that a centrifugal-force calculation (centripetal,
>>> actually) makes some assumptions that we dramatically violate when we
>>> dance. We are not rigid bodies. At best, we're collections of many light
>>> rigid bodies (our bones) linked by ligaments, tendons, and muscles, and
>>> bearing all sorts of other masses that move relative to one another,
>>> storing momentum until we can deal with it in the next step.  We
>>> effectively pump momentum up from our feet, into our bodies, and down to
>>> our feet on each step. We transfer it to the other dancer through our arms
>>> and theirs, and their back, if we have a hand there.
>>>
>>> With that in mind, consider this model of a swing.  Each dancer's upper
>>> half is trying to execute rigid circular motion.  Our lower bodies (hips
>>> down) are doing something else, and half our mass is down there.  So, drop
>>> my estimated 90 lbs to 45 just for that (I'll drop it more in a minute).
>>> The lower half is essentially stepping a figure with 90 or 135 degree
>>> corners on each beat.  Consider the left foot.  In a standard swing (2x in
>>> 8 beats), it is 

[Callers] Re: Surely thus dance has a name and author?

[Julian Blechner via Contra Callers]

Yeah, I was going to modify it to what I originally posted. It's the
closest I found.

If someone knows of anything closer, I'm ears!

On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 5:02 PM Alex Burka via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Careful with Blizzard Chimney, it has a swing ending in the middle of the
> phrase. Plagiarist's Reel is what came up in my search from your original
> description, which is similar but without that issue.
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 2:58 PM Mac Mckeever via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> my favorite box circulate dance is DuQuoin Races by Orace Johnson from
>> sometime around 1990
>>
>> Mac
>>
>> StLouis
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, March 30, 2024 at 01:52:34 PM CDT, Julian Blechner via
>> Contra Callers  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Okay, the Callers Box site didn't like 'circulate' in the middle of a
>> line of text.
>>
>> Here we go:
>>
>> The Blizzard Chimney Contra
>> by Geoff Cubitt
>> Permission: full
>> FormationBase: Duple Minor  -  Becket
>> Progression: Single
>> Direction: CW
>> Figures:
>> A1 (6) Circle left 3/4
>> (2) Pass through along (NR)
>> (8) N2 neighbor allemande right 1 & 1/2
>> A2 (4) Balance long wave (N2R, men face in)
>> (4) Circulate: Men cross, women loop right [with N2]
>> (4) Balance long wave (PR, women face in)
>> (4) Circulate: Women cross, men loop right [with N2]
>> B1 (8) N2 neighbor swing
>> (8) Men allemande left 1 & 1/2
>> B2 (4) Partner balance
>> (12) Partner swing
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 2:45 PM Julian Blechner <
>> juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Yeah, it's pretty close.
>> >
>> > Side-note: Callers Box doesn't seem to like "circulate", which is why I
>> asked here.
>> >
>> > I've been looking for solid Box Circulate dances that aren't the same 3
>> or 4, and are a tad easier so I can swap 'em in, or put them in a medley.
>> >
>> > This one's similar enough to a couple Rory dances as well.
>> >
>> > Any other close dances / matches?
>> >
>> > In dance,
>> > Julian Blechner
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 2:16 PM Don Veino 
>> wrote:
>> >> Not exactly, but close... there's probably another that's closer?
>> >>
>> >> If I Fits, I Sits - Becket Left/CW - Don Veino 20231125
>> >>
>> >> A1 (left diagonal) Circle Left 3/4x, NBR Dosido 1+1/4x to wave/4
>> >>
>> >>  (RH to NBR on GNT/LRK home side)
>> >>
>> >> A2 Wave/4 Balance, Hinge 1/4, Box Circulate (GNT/LRK cross, LDY/RBN
>> loop)
>> >>
>> >> Long Wave Balance, Box Circulate (LDY/RBN cross, GNT/LRK loop)
>> >>
>> >> B1 NBR Balance (or RSR) & Swing (at LDY/RBN home)
>> >>
>> >> B2 Give & Take to LDY/RBN (ALT: GNT/LRK ALM LT 1+1/2x), PNR Swing
>> >>
>> >> In my experience, the hinge to circulate here actually helps newer
>> dancers get the loop right motion of the box circ. I was slightly concerned
>> about that timing but it's danced well when called.
>> >>
>> >> -Don
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 1:17 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> >>> Becket
>> >>> A1. Circle L, Pass Thru N (or slide L to next and circle)
>> >>> N Alle R 1 1/4 to long wavy line, Larks face out, Robins face in
>> >>> A2. Bal, Circulate x2
>> >>> B1. N B+S
>> >>> B2. Larks Alle L 1.5x (or pull by)
>> >>> PS
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ___
>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
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[Callers] Re: The Weaving Way

[Bob Morgan via Contra Callers]

I have a card but no attribution.

The Weaving Way
Square in a square, 48 Reel/Jig

A1 Heads face face in, sides face other sides: Dip and dive (arches
outsides 1 & 4, inside 2 & 3)
A2 Continue to place
B1 Partner swing, end facing nearest couple
B2 1/2 RH star, weave 3/4 ( whole set as couples presumably?)
C1 continue, 1/2 RH star
C2 Whole Chain across, heads power turn to face in


Bob


On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 5:56 PM Louise Siddons via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I have a note to myself from pre-pandemic times about a
> square-within-a-square called The Weaving Way. I have no other information
> about it, and searching the archives of this list and the trad callers list
> produced no useful results, so… I turn to all of you. Do you know this
> dance, and if so, are you willing to share?
>
> Thanks very much,
>
> Louise.
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[Callers] Re: Surely thus dance has a name and author?

[Alex Burka via Contra Callers]

Careful with Blizzard Chimney, it has a swing ending in the middle of the
phrase. Plagiarist's Reel is what came up in my search from your original
description, which is similar but without that issue.

On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 2:58 PM Mac Mckeever via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> my favorite box circulate dance is DuQuoin Races by Orace Johnson from
> sometime around 1990
>
> Mac
>
> StLouis
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Saturday, March 30, 2024 at 01:52:34 PM CDT, Julian Blechner via Contra
> Callers  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Okay, the Callers Box site didn't like 'circulate' in the middle of a line
> of text.
>
> Here we go:
>
> The Blizzard Chimney Contra
> by Geoff Cubitt
> Permission: full
> FormationBase: Duple Minor  -  Becket
> Progression: Single
> Direction: CW
> Figures:
> A1 (6) Circle left 3/4
> (2) Pass through along (NR)
> (8) N2 neighbor allemande right 1 & 1/2
> A2 (4) Balance long wave (N2R, men face in)
> (4) Circulate: Men cross, women loop right [with N2]
> (4) Balance long wave (PR, women face in)
> (4) Circulate: Women cross, men loop right [with N2]
> B1 (8) N2 neighbor swing
> (8) Men allemande left 1 & 1/2
> B2 (4) Partner balance
> (12) Partner swing
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 2:45 PM Julian Blechner 
> wrote:
> > Yeah, it's pretty close.
> >
> > Side-note: Callers Box doesn't seem to like "circulate", which is why I
> asked here.
> >
> > I've been looking for solid Box Circulate dances that aren't the same 3
> or 4, and are a tad easier so I can swap 'em in, or put them in a medley.
> >
> > This one's similar enough to a couple Rory dances as well.
> >
> > Any other close dances / matches?
> >
> > In dance,
> > Julian Blechner
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 2:16 PM Don Veino 
> wrote:
> >> Not exactly, but close... there's probably another that's closer?
> >>
> >> If I Fits, I Sits - Becket Left/CW - Don Veino 20231125
> >>
> >> A1 (left diagonal) Circle Left 3/4x, NBR Dosido 1+1/4x to wave/4
> >>
> >>  (RH to NBR on GNT/LRK home side)
> >>
> >> A2 Wave/4 Balance, Hinge 1/4, Box Circulate (GNT/LRK cross, LDY/RBN
> loop)
> >>
> >> Long Wave Balance, Box Circulate (LDY/RBN cross, GNT/LRK loop)
> >>
> >> B1 NBR Balance (or RSR) & Swing (at LDY/RBN home)
> >>
> >> B2 Give & Take to LDY/RBN (ALT: GNT/LRK ALM LT 1+1/2x), PNR Swing
> >>
> >> In my experience, the hinge to circulate here actually helps newer
> dancers get the loop right motion of the box circ. I was slightly concerned
> about that timing but it's danced well when called.
> >>
> >> -Don
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 1:17 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >>> Becket
> >>> A1. Circle L, Pass Thru N (or slide L to next and circle)
> >>> N Alle R 1 1/4 to long wavy line, Larks face out, Robins face in
> >>> A2. Bal, Circulate x2
> >>> B1. N B+S
> >>> B2. Larks Alle L 1.5x (or pull by)
> >>> PS
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
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[Callers] Re: Looking for contra dances that are more difficult .......

[Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers]

Rick

(1)  'Alone at the End'  was first published in the book 'MIdwest
Folklore'   for which I (with much coaching by Al Olson)  was the dance
editor.

(2) You must have a few that could be answers to my inquiry.

(3) Two dances by Al that I have called (the second one often)
'Contra Corners Special'
https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=15862
'Carina' (a slight variation of)
https://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/dance.php?id=2316


On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 1:01 PM Rick Mohr  wrote:

> Michael, here's one I learned about in an exchange with Chris Page.
> Haven't tried it, but there's a good video -- Alone at the End
> 
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 1:43 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Dale for the pleasant words.
>> The dance you referred to may have been one with a right and left on the
>> 1/2 diagonal, most likely "A New Idea"
>> All my dances with this figure can be found at
>> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#RL
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 10:33 AM Dale Wilson via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> For those who don't know Michael, he specializes in writing and calling
>>> these kinds of dances.
>>>
>>> When he calls at a dance weekend, it's always an adventure, and
>>> amazingly enough the dances actually work!
>>>
>>> [Michael, I still remember that dance you called at Kimmswick that
>>> included a right-and-left that somehow happened with a couple from another
>>> set.]
>>>
>>>
>>> Dale
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 8:43 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Greg:

 I guess I mean dances that a caller must spend an extra bit of
 time to visualize,  and/or to work out the teaching and/or calls
 -- or dances that only an experienced caller can try.
 A few examples from my dances...

 Where's Alex?
 https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Wheres

 From the Earth to the Moon and a Trip Around It
 https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Earth

 Two Orange Cats
 https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Cats

 Rusty Wheel Reels
 https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Rusty

 The Great Urbana Barn Dance
 https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Great

 Michael

 On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 3:40 PM Gregory Frock 
 wrote:

> Hi Michael,
> I am not sure I understand the premise of the question.
>
> Breaking things down, an instructor has verbal description and
> demonstrations as primary tools teach a dance. If an instructor feels they
> cannot describe a figure adequately well verbally, they should not 
> hesitate
> to demonstrate it. Any figures from the basic vocabulary, circles, stars,
> chains, etc would be familia
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 2:56 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> ... to teach to reasonably experienced dancers than they are  for
>> them to dance.
>> ___
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Penultimatum:  Surrender now or next time I threaten you I'll really
>>> mean it.
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[Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info

[Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers]

"Why? Would it help anyone dance better?"

To better understand the world!

Jeff

On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 3:45 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Are you actually thinking of doing this?  Why? Would it help anyone dance
> better? If someone does this kind of thing for work and could tap into
> those resources, it might be practical.  Otherwise, this looks like the
> kind of setup that would require significant thought, effort, and expense.
>
> One approach would be to green-suit up in a video-game studio, and then
> tap into the calculations that the game software uses to create game
> motions from human ones.  That wouldn't be measurements of forces directly,
> but it would be pretty comprehensive.  You'd know where all the momentum
> went and it would calculate transmitted forces through every surface, which
> you could sum for the hand and arm, etc.  They might also have force
> sensors of some sort.  Somebody must have, at some point in the development
> of those systems.
>
> --jh--
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 3:17 PM Chris Lahey  wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have any thoughts about how we can measure some of this? I
>> can definitely imagine a force pad on someone's back to measure the
>> tension, but I'm a bit lost as to how he can measure the ground forces
>> (including possibly torque around a vertical axis)?
>>
>> I think normal force should be easy. That can be built into a pad on the
>> ground if nothing else, but friction would be harder.
>>
>> Unless we had multiple pads each of which had force sensors in all 3 axes
>> (plus a rotational sensor) does anyone know how much such an apparatus
>> would cost to build?
>>
>> Now that I think about 3 axis force sensors, i wonder if there's much
>> lateral or vertical force in the connection point and whether I'd there is
>> that feels bad in some natural way.
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 13:37 Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Funny thing, I wrote the email below last Sunday and thought, do the
>>> world's callers really want a physics calculation on their mailing list?  I
>>> decided the better of it and didn't send it.  Ok, I guess I was wrong...
>>>
>>> What I call support is against centrifugal force, not vertical. Of
>>> course, there's no need to lift the other dancer, and it's a really poor
>>> idea.
>>>
>>> As Jeff pointed out, in a fast swing, there's a lot of centrifugal
>>> force, as seen from our rotating frame of reference in the swing.  For
>>> physics buffs, centrifugal force increases as the square of velocity, so a
>>> swing that goes around three times in 8 beats rather than twice (1.5x
>>> faster rotation, the first-level "fast swing") has 2.25 times as much
>>> outward force to support.  Estimating a 25 cm radius (about 50 cm between
>>> the centers of mass of the two dancers, in the middles of their abdomens,
>>> which I measured with a tape measure) and a 70 kg (150 lb) dancer, that's
>>> an outward force for each of the two bodies of almost 390 Newtons, or
>>> nearly 90 pounds.  Much of that will be borne by the friction between the
>>> dancer's feet and the floor, but the rest will be held by the supporting
>>> dancer(s).  How much depends on how they lean.  For a standard swing (2
>>> rotations per 8 beats), it's just under 40 lbs.  Fortunately, you only have
>>> to hold it for four to eight seconds at a time, or actually less as you
>>> accelerate and decelerate inside that time, though the peak force will then
>>> be higher.
>>>
>>> ...and now I add...
>>>
>>> Despite starting with it above, myself, I think we're somewhat
>>> misleading ourselves with this Mv**2/r calculation.
>>>
>>> The key thing here is that a centrifugal-force calculation (centripetal,
>>> actually) makes some assumptions that we dramatically violate when we
>>> dance. We are not rigid bodies. At best, we're collections of many light
>>> rigid bodies (our bones) linked by ligaments, tendons, and muscles, and
>>> bearing all sorts of other masses that move relative to one another,
>>> storing momentum until we can deal with it in the next step.  We
>>> effectively pump momentum up from our feet, into our bodies, and down to
>>> our feet on each step. We transfer it to the other dancer through our arms
>>> and theirs, and their back, if we have a hand there.
>>>
>>> With that in mind, consider this model of a swing.  Each dancer's upper
>>> half is trying to execute rigid circular motion.  Our lower bodies (hips
>>> down) are doing something else, and half our mass is down there.  So, drop
>>> my estimated 90 lbs to 45 just for that (I'll drop it more in a minute).
>>> The lower half is essentially stepping a figure with 90 or 135 degree
>>> corners on each beat.  Consider the left foot.  In a standard swing (2x in
>>> 8 beats), it is walking a square, directing momentum along the sides of the
>>> square that the upper body picks up and turns into 

[Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info

[Joe Harrington via Contra Callers]

Are you actually thinking of doing this?  Why? Would it help anyone dance
better? If someone does this kind of thing for work and could tap into
those resources, it might be practical.  Otherwise, this looks like the
kind of setup that would require significant thought, effort, and expense.

One approach would be to green-suit up in a video-game studio, and then tap
into the calculations that the game software uses to create game motions
from human ones.  That wouldn't be measurements of forces directly, but it
would be pretty comprehensive.  You'd know where all the momentum went and
it would calculate transmitted forces through every surface, which you
could sum for the hand and arm, etc.  They might also have force sensors of
some sort.  Somebody must have, at some point in the development of those
systems.

--jh--


On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 3:17 PM Chris Lahey  wrote:

> Does anyone have any thoughts about how we can measure some of this? I can
> definitely imagine a force pad on someone's back to measure the tension,
> but I'm a bit lost as to how he can measure the ground forces (including
> possibly torque around a vertical axis)?
>
> I think normal force should be easy. That can be built into a pad on the
> ground if nothing else, but friction would be harder.
>
> Unless we had multiple pads each of which had force sensors in all 3 axes
> (plus a rotational sensor) does anyone know how much such an apparatus
> would cost to build?
>
> Now that I think about 3 axis force sensors, i wonder if there's much
> lateral or vertical force in the connection point and whether I'd there is
> that feels bad in some natural way.
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 13:37 Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Funny thing, I wrote the email below last Sunday and thought, do the
>> world's callers really want a physics calculation on their mailing list?  I
>> decided the better of it and didn't send it.  Ok, I guess I was wrong...
>>
>> What I call support is against centrifugal force, not vertical. Of
>> course, there's no need to lift the other dancer, and it's a really poor
>> idea.
>>
>> As Jeff pointed out, in a fast swing, there's a lot of centrifugal force,
>> as seen from our rotating frame of reference in the swing.  For physics
>> buffs, centrifugal force increases as the square of velocity, so a swing
>> that goes around three times in 8 beats rather than twice (1.5x faster
>> rotation, the first-level "fast swing") has 2.25 times as much outward
>> force to support.  Estimating a 25 cm radius (about 50 cm between the
>> centers of mass of the two dancers, in the middles of their abdomens, which
>> I measured with a tape measure) and a 70 kg (150 lb) dancer, that's an
>> outward force for each of the two bodies of almost 390 Newtons, or nearly
>> 90 pounds.  Much of that will be borne by the friction between the dancer's
>> feet and the floor, but the rest will be held by the supporting dancer(s).
>> How much depends on how they lean.  For a standard swing (2 rotations per 8
>> beats), it's just under 40 lbs.  Fortunately, you only have to hold it for
>> four to eight seconds at a time, or actually less as you accelerate and
>> decelerate inside that time, though the peak force will then be higher.
>>
>> ...and now I add...
>>
>> Despite starting with it above, myself, I think we're somewhat misleading
>> ourselves with this Mv**2/r calculation.
>>
>> The key thing here is that a centrifugal-force calculation (centripetal,
>> actually) makes some assumptions that we dramatically violate when we
>> dance. We are not rigid bodies. At best, we're collections of many light
>> rigid bodies (our bones) linked by ligaments, tendons, and muscles, and
>> bearing all sorts of other masses that move relative to one another,
>> storing momentum until we can deal with it in the next step.  We
>> effectively pump momentum up from our feet, into our bodies, and down to
>> our feet on each step. We transfer it to the other dancer through our arms
>> and theirs, and their back, if we have a hand there.
>>
>> With that in mind, consider this model of a swing.  Each dancer's upper
>> half is trying to execute rigid circular motion.  Our lower bodies (hips
>> down) are doing something else, and half our mass is down there.  So, drop
>> my estimated 90 lbs to 45 just for that (I'll drop it more in a minute).
>> The lower half is essentially stepping a figure with 90 or 135 degree
>> corners on each beat.  Consider the left foot.  In a standard swing (2x in
>> 8 beats), it is walking a square, directing momentum along the sides of the
>> square that the upper body picks up and turns into rotation.  Half of each
>> square side brings that leg closer to the middle, the other half takes it
>> farther away.  We land, push off, and do it again and again. That push-off
>> supports the centripetal needs of both legs (through the hip joint) and
>> some of the upper body.  If there is an outward 

[Callers] Re: April Fools fun

[steve Pike via Contra Callers]

As mentioned earlier, know your crowd. With some I can say with a grin  “What 
did you expect what you booked me to call on April 1?” and we can all have a 
good time. With others, not so much, so use “Fool-ish” dances sparingly.

Some of my usual, easy enough for most crowds, Foolish tricks, include:

Left hand chain: Any dance with a full chain (e.g Summer Sunshine 
), alternate 
full left hand chain (formerly Gent’s chain, from the usual side), with the 
standard full right hand chain.) I’ll often use this early if I have a left 
hand chain later in the program, teaching the LH chain first, demo-ing if 
necessary.

Swing the wrong way: Morning Star 
 or here 
 (Actives 
Balance Swing CW as usual, then Bal and Swing CCW, “Ideally with the 'other 
hands joined’ in waltz position, with the left foot in front for the buzz step 
--- or some other way you can work it out!”) Amazing how hard it is for even 
many experienced dancers - think about how new dancers must feel! Can alternate 
1s 2s as the actives, and dance proper or not.

What, no progression? Teach (1 or no walkthrough) and call a Becket A1 Slide 
left and Circle L dance without the slide left the first 2 or 3 times 
through…”same 4, circle left 3/4…” before, as some dancers catch on and start 
to murmur, “April Fools! This time,  slide left and circle…”

An Alternating Dance, esp Sun Dance and Moon Dance. Robert Cromartie. 
Alternates A2 Larks BS in middle with A2 Robins BS in middle, with some 
alternating tweaks to A1 and B2 to make it work. Or other two similar dances, 
maybe 1 version 4X, then spring the other version 4X then 2/2, then 1/1 e.g Hey 
Man , or 
a Jed’s Reel/Edna’s Reel medley 

A real dance (not much foolish except for the A2 which give those that only 
dance that lefthand/Larks/Gents role a chance to experience the lovely chain to 
hey combination): 
Chain of Fools, Steve Pike
A1 BSN
A2 Left hand chain to P, 1/2 hey (those who chained - Larks - pass left 
shoulder to start, NR, they pass L in middle)
B1 P BS (or RSR/Swing)
B2 Cir L 3/4, PT, next N DsD ( alt: Cir L 3/4, Bal, PT…)

Steve Pike
Mequon, WI

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[Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info

[Chris Lahey via Contra Callers]

Does anyone have any thoughts about how we can measure some of this? I can
definitely imagine a force pad on someone's back to measure the tension,
but I'm a bit lost as to how he can measure the ground forces (including
possibly torque around a vertical axis)?

I think normal force should be easy. That can be built into a pad on the
ground if nothing else, but friction would be harder.

Unless we had multiple pads each of which had force sensors in all 3 axes
(plus a rotational sensor) does anyone know how much such an apparatus
would cost to build?

Now that I think about 3 axis force sensors, i wonder if there's much
lateral or vertical force in the connection point and whether I'd there is
that feels bad in some natural way.

On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 13:37 Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Funny thing, I wrote the email below last Sunday and thought, do the
> world's callers really want a physics calculation on their mailing list?  I
> decided the better of it and didn't send it.  Ok, I guess I was wrong...
>
> What I call support is against centrifugal force, not vertical. Of course,
> there's no need to lift the other dancer, and it's a really poor idea.
>
> As Jeff pointed out, in a fast swing, there's a lot of centrifugal force,
> as seen from our rotating frame of reference in the swing.  For physics
> buffs, centrifugal force increases as the square of velocity, so a swing
> that goes around three times in 8 beats rather than twice (1.5x faster
> rotation, the first-level "fast swing") has 2.25 times as much outward
> force to support.  Estimating a 25 cm radius (about 50 cm between the
> centers of mass of the two dancers, in the middles of their abdomens, which
> I measured with a tape measure) and a 70 kg (150 lb) dancer, that's an
> outward force for each of the two bodies of almost 390 Newtons, or nearly
> 90 pounds.  Much of that will be borne by the friction between the dancer's
> feet and the floor, but the rest will be held by the supporting dancer(s).
> How much depends on how they lean.  For a standard swing (2 rotations per 8
> beats), it's just under 40 lbs.  Fortunately, you only have to hold it for
> four to eight seconds at a time, or actually less as you accelerate and
> decelerate inside that time, though the peak force will then be higher.
>
> ...and now I add...
>
> Despite starting with it above, myself, I think we're somewhat misleading
> ourselves with this Mv**2/r calculation.
>
> The key thing here is that a centrifugal-force calculation (centripetal,
> actually) makes some assumptions that we dramatically violate when we
> dance. We are not rigid bodies. At best, we're collections of many light
> rigid bodies (our bones) linked by ligaments, tendons, and muscles, and
> bearing all sorts of other masses that move relative to one another,
> storing momentum until we can deal with it in the next step.  We
> effectively pump momentum up from our feet, into our bodies, and down to
> our feet on each step. We transfer it to the other dancer through our arms
> and theirs, and their back, if we have a hand there.
>
> With that in mind, consider this model of a swing.  Each dancer's upper
> half is trying to execute rigid circular motion.  Our lower bodies (hips
> down) are doing something else, and half our mass is down there.  So, drop
> my estimated 90 lbs to 45 just for that (I'll drop it more in a minute).
> The lower half is essentially stepping a figure with 90 or 135 degree
> corners on each beat.  Consider the left foot.  In a standard swing (2x in
> 8 beats), it is walking a square, directing momentum along the sides of the
> square that the upper body picks up and turns into rotation.  Half of each
> square side brings that leg closer to the middle, the other half takes it
> farther away.  We land, push off, and do it again and again. That push-off
> supports the centripetal needs of both legs (through the hip joint) and
> some of the upper body.  If there is an outward lean off the right foot,
> additional centripetal support is needed from either the legs or arms.  The
> right foot is mainly a pivot, while both feet support gravitational weight.
>
> Good dancers constantly adjust how far out their left feet land on each
> step and how hard they push off, simultaneously satisfying both their
> centripetal needs and the required spin rate.  This lets them control how
> much inward force they draw from their feet into the upper-body rotation to
> supplement the arms.  That reduces the support needed from the arms well
> below 45 lbs.  It can reduce it to zero.  Tweaking the lean also adjusts
> where the axis of rotation is, to balance the different masses of the
> dancers and make their differing force impulses produce matched torque
> impulses.  Dancers use the beat to step in sync with the other dancer's
> legs, or these torque impulses would come at different times, and the swing
> would wobble and fall apart, as Chris 

[Callers] Re: Surely thus dance has a name and author?

[Mac Mckeever via Contra Callers]

my favorite box circulate dance is DuQuoin Races by Orace Johnson from sometime 
around 1990

Mac

StLouis








On Saturday, March 30, 2024 at 01:52:34 PM CDT, Julian Blechner via Contra 
Callers  wrote: 





Okay, the Callers Box site didn't like 'circulate' in the middle of a line of 
text. 

Here we go:

The Blizzard Chimney Contra
by Geoff Cubitt
Permission: full
FormationBase: Duple Minor  -  Becket 
Progression: Single 
Direction: CW 
Figures:
A1 (6) Circle left 3/4
(2) Pass through along (NR)
(8) N2 neighbor allemande right 1 & 1/2 
A2 (4) Balance long wave (N2R, men face in)
(4) Circulate: Men cross, women loop right [with N2]
(4) Balance long wave (PR, women face in)
(4) Circulate: Women cross, men loop right [with N2] 
B1 (8) N2 neighbor swing
(8) Men allemande left 1 & 1/2 
B2 (4) Partner balance
(12) Partner swing 

On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 2:45 PM Julian Blechner  
wrote:
> Yeah, it's pretty close.
> 
> Side-note: Callers Box doesn't seem to like "circulate", which is why I asked 
> here.
> 
> I've been looking for solid Box Circulate dances that aren't the same 3 or 4, 
> and are a tad easier so I can swap 'em in, or put them in a medley.
> 
> This one's similar enough to a couple Rory dances as well.
> 
> Any other close dances / matches?
> 
> In dance,
> Julian Blechner
> 
> 
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 2:16 PM Don Veino  wrote:
>> Not exactly, but close... there's probably another that's closer?
>> 
>> If I Fits, I Sits - Becket Left/CW - Don Veino 20231125
>> 
>> A1 (left diagonal) Circle Left 3/4x, NBR Dosido 1+1/4x to wave/4
>> 
>>  (RH to NBR on GNT/LRK home side)
>> 
>> A2 Wave/4 Balance, Hinge 1/4, Box Circulate (GNT/LRK cross, LDY/RBN loop)
>> 
>> Long Wave Balance, Box Circulate (LDY/RBN cross, GNT/LRK loop)
>> 
>> B1 NBR Balance (or RSR) & Swing (at LDY/RBN home)
>> 
>> B2 Give & Take to LDY/RBN (ALT: GNT/LRK ALM LT 1+1/2x), PNR Swing
>> 
>> In my experience, the hinge to circulate here actually helps newer dancers 
>> get the loop right motion of the box circ. I was slightly concerned about 
>> that timing but it's danced well when called.
>> 
>> -Don
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 1:17 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers 
>>  wrote:
>>> Becket
>>> A1. Circle L, Pass Thru N (or slide L to next and circle)
>>> N Alle R 1 1/4 to long wavy line, Larks face out, Robins face in
>>> A2. Bal, Circulate x2
>>> B1. N B+S
>>> B2. Larks Alle L 1.5x (or pull by)
>>> PS
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> 
>> 
> 

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[Callers] Re: Surely thus dance has a name and author?

[Mac Mckeever via Contra Callers]

my favorite box circulate dance is DuQuoin Races by Orace Johnson from sometime 
around 1990

Mac

StLouis






On Saturday, March 30, 2024 at 01:52:34 PM CDT, Julian Blechner via Contra 
Callers  wrote: 





Okay, the Callers Box site didn't like 'circulate' in the middle of a line of 
text. 

Here we go:

The Blizzard Chimney Contra
by Geoff Cubitt
Permission: full
FormationBase: Duple Minor  -  Becket 
Progression: Single 
Direction: CW 
Figures:
A1 (6) Circle left 3/4
(2) Pass through along (NR)
(8) N2 neighbor allemande right 1 & 1/2 
A2 (4) Balance long wave (N2R, men face in)
(4) Circulate: Men cross, women loop right [with N2]
(4) Balance long wave (PR, women face in)
(4) Circulate: Women cross, men loop right [with N2] 
B1 (8) N2 neighbor swing
(8) Men allemande left 1 & 1/2 
B2 (4) Partner balance
(12) Partner swing 

On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 2:45 PM Julian Blechner  
wrote:
> Yeah, it's pretty close.
> 
> Side-note: Callers Box doesn't seem to like "circulate", which is why I asked 
> here.
> 
> I've been looking for solid Box Circulate dances that aren't the same 3 or 4, 
> and are a tad easier so I can swap 'em in, or put them in a medley.
> 
> This one's similar enough to a couple Rory dances as well.
> 
> Any other close dances / matches?
> 
> In dance,
> Julian Blechner
> 
> 
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 2:16 PM Don Veino  wrote:
>> Not exactly, but close... there's probably another that's closer?
>> 
>> If I Fits, I Sits - Becket Left/CW - Don Veino 20231125
>> 
>> A1 (left diagonal) Circle Left 3/4x, NBR Dosido 1+1/4x to wave/4
>> 
>>  (RH to NBR on GNT/LRK home side)
>> 
>> A2 Wave/4 Balance, Hinge 1/4, Box Circulate (GNT/LRK cross, LDY/RBN loop)
>> 
>> Long Wave Balance, Box Circulate (LDY/RBN cross, GNT/LRK loop)
>> 
>> B1 NBR Balance (or RSR) & Swing (at LDY/RBN home)
>> 
>> B2 Give & Take to LDY/RBN (ALT: GNT/LRK ALM LT 1+1/2x), PNR Swing
>> 
>> In my experience, the hinge to circulate here actually helps newer dancers 
>> get the loop right motion of the box circ. I was slightly concerned about 
>> that timing but it's danced well when called.
>> 
>> -Don
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 1:17 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers 
>>  wrote:
>>> Becket
>>> A1. Circle L, Pass Thru N (or slide L to next and circle)
>>> N Alle R 1 1/4 to long wavy line, Larks face out, Robins face in
>>> A2. Bal, Circulate x2
>>> B1. N B+S
>>> B2. Larks Alle L 1.5x (or pull by)
>>> PS
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> 
>> 
> 

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[Callers] Re: Surely thus dance has a name and author?

[Julian Blechner via Contra Callers]

Okay, the Callers Box site didn't like 'circulate' in the middle of a line
of text.

Here we go:

The Blizzard Chimney Contra

by Geoff Cubitt

Permission: full
FormationBase: Duple Minor

 - Becket

Progression: Single
Direction: CW
Figures:
A1

(6) Circle left

 3/4

(2) Pass through

 along

 (NR)

(8) N2 neighbor allemande

right
1 & 1/2
A2

(4) Balance
 long
wave

 (N2R, men
 face
in)

(4) Circulate
:
Men 
cross 
, women
 loop
right [with N2]

(4) Balance
 long
wave

 (PR, women
 face
in)

(4) Circulate
:
Women 
 cross
, men
 loop
right [with N2]
B1

(8) N2 neighbor swing


(8) Men 
 allemande
 left
1 & 1/2
B2

(4) Partner balance


(12) Partner swing


On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 2:45 PM Julian Blechner 
wrote:

> Yeah, it's pretty close.
>
> Side-note: Callers Box doesn't seem to like "circulate", which is why I
> asked here.
>
> I've been looking for solid Box Circulate dances that aren't the same 3 or
> 4, and are a tad easier so I can swap 'em in, or put them in a medley.
>
> This one's similar enough to a couple Rory dances as well.
>
> Any other close dances / matches?
>
> In dance,
> Julian Blechner
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 2:16 PM Don Veino 
> wrote:
>
>> Not exactly, but close... there's probably another that's closer?
>>
>> If I Fits, I Sits - Becket Left/CW - Don Veino 20231125
>>
>> A1 (left diagonal) Circle Left 3/4x, NBR Dosido 1+1/4x to wave/4
>>
>>  (RH to NBR on GNT/LRK home side)
>>
>> A2 Wave/4 Balance, Hinge 1/4, Box Circulate (GNT/LRK cross, LDY/RBN loop)
>>
>> Long Wave Balance, Box Circulate (LDY/RBN cross, GNT/LRK loop)
>>
>> B1 NBR Balance (or RSR) & Swing (at LDY/RBN home)
>>
>> B2 Give & Take to LDY/RBN (ALT: GNT/LRK ALM LT 1+1/2x), PNR Swing
>>
>> In my experience, the hinge to circulate here actually helps newer
>> dancers get the loop right motion of the box circ. I was slightly concerned
>> about that timing but it's danced well when called.
>>
>> -Don
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 1:17 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Becket
>>> A1. Circle L, Pass Thru N (or slide L to next and circle)
>>> N Alle R 1 1/4 to long wavy line, Larks face out, Robins face in
>>> A2. Bal, Circulate x2
>>> B1. N B+S
>>> B2. Larks Alle L 1.5x (or pull by)
>>> PS
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>
>>
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[Callers] Re: Surely thus dance has a name and author?

[Julian Blechner via Contra Callers]

Yeah, it's pretty close.

Side-note: Callers Box doesn't seem to like "circulate", which is why I
asked here.

I've been looking for solid Box Circulate dances that aren't the same 3 or
4, and are a tad easier so I can swap 'em in, or put them in a medley.

This one's similar enough to a couple Rory dances as well.

Any other close dances / matches?

In dance,
Julian Blechner


On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 2:16 PM Don Veino  wrote:

> Not exactly, but close... there's probably another that's closer?
>
> If I Fits, I Sits - Becket Left/CW - Don Veino 20231125
>
> A1 (left diagonal) Circle Left 3/4x, NBR Dosido 1+1/4x to wave/4
>
>  (RH to NBR on GNT/LRK home side)
>
> A2 Wave/4 Balance, Hinge 1/4, Box Circulate (GNT/LRK cross, LDY/RBN loop)
>
> Long Wave Balance, Box Circulate (LDY/RBN cross, GNT/LRK loop)
>
> B1 NBR Balance (or RSR) & Swing (at LDY/RBN home)
>
> B2 Give & Take to LDY/RBN (ALT: GNT/LRK ALM LT 1+1/2x), PNR Swing
>
> In my experience, the hinge to circulate here actually helps newer dancers
> get the loop right motion of the box circ. I was slightly concerned about
> that timing but it's danced well when called.
>
> -Don
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 1:17 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Becket
>> A1. Circle L, Pass Thru N (or slide L to next and circle)
>> N Alle R 1 1/4 to long wavy line, Larks face out, Robins face in
>> A2. Bal, Circulate x2
>> B1. N B+S
>> B2. Larks Alle L 1.5x (or pull by)
>> PS
>>
>>
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[Callers] Re: Surely thus dance has a name and author?

[Don Veino via Contra Callers]

Not exactly, but close... there's probably another that's closer?

If I Fits, I Sits - Becket Left/CW - Don Veino 20231125

A1 (left diagonal) Circle Left 3/4x, NBR Dosido 1+1/4x to wave/4

 (RH to NBR on GNT/LRK home side)

A2 Wave/4 Balance, Hinge 1/4, Box Circulate (GNT/LRK cross, LDY/RBN loop)

Long Wave Balance, Box Circulate (LDY/RBN cross, GNT/LRK loop)

B1 NBR Balance (or RSR) & Swing (at LDY/RBN home)

B2 Give & Take to LDY/RBN (ALT: GNT/LRK ALM LT 1+1/2x), PNR Swing

In my experience, the hinge to circulate here actually helps newer dancers
get the loop right motion of the box circ. I was slightly concerned about
that timing but it's danced well when called.

-Don


On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 1:17 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Becket
> A1. Circle L, Pass Thru N (or slide L to next and circle)
> N Alle R 1 1/4 to long wavy line, Larks face out, Robins face in
> A2. Bal, Circulate x2
> B1. N B+S
> B2. Larks Alle L 1.5x (or pull by)
> PS
>
>
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[Callers] Re: Looking for contra dances that are more difficult .......

[Rick Mohr via Contra Callers]

Michael, here's one I learned about in an exchange with Chris Page. Haven't
tried it, but there's a good video -- Alone at the End


On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 1:43 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Thanks Dale for the pleasant words.
> The dance you referred to may have been one with a right and left on the
> 1/2 diagonal, most likely "A New Idea"
> All my dances with this figure can be found at
> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#RL
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 10:33 AM Dale Wilson via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> For those who don't know Michael, he specializes in writing and calling
>> these kinds of dances.
>>
>> When he calls at a dance weekend, it's always an adventure, and amazingly
>> enough the dances actually work!
>>
>> [Michael, I still remember that dance you called at Kimmswick that
>> included a right-and-left that somehow happened with a couple from another
>> set.]
>>
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 8:43 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Greg:
>>>
>>> I guess I mean dances that a caller must spend an extra bit of
>>> time to visualize,  and/or to work out the teaching and/or calls
>>> -- or dances that only an experienced caller can try.
>>> A few examples from my dances...
>>>
>>> Where's Alex?
>>> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Wheres
>>>
>>> From the Earth to the Moon and a Trip Around It
>>> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Earth
>>>
>>> Two Orange Cats
>>> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Cats
>>>
>>> Rusty Wheel Reels
>>> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Rusty
>>>
>>> The Great Urbana Barn Dance
>>> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Great
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 3:40 PM Gregory Frock 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Michael,
 I am not sure I understand the premise of the question.

 Breaking things down, an instructor has verbal description and
 demonstrations as primary tools teach a dance. If an instructor feels they
 cannot describe a figure adequately well verbally, they should not hesitate
 to demonstrate it. Any figures from the basic vocabulary, circles, stars,
 chains, etc would be familia

 On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 2:56 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
 contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> ... to teach to reasonably experienced dancers than they are  for them
> to dance.
> ___
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 ___
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Penultimatum:  Surrender now or next time I threaten you I'll really mean
>> it.
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[Callers] The Weaving Way

[Louise Siddons via Contra Callers]

Hi all,

I have a note to myself from pre-pandemic times about a square-within-a-square 
called The Weaving Way. I have no other information about it, and searching the 
archives of this list and the trad callers list produced no useful results, so… 
I turn to all of you. Do you know this dance, and if so, are you willing to 
share?

Thanks very much,

Louise. 
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[Callers] Re: Looking for contra dances that are more difficult .......

[Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers]

Thanks Dale for the pleasant words.
The dance you referred to may have been one with a right and left on the
1/2 diagonal, most likely "A New Idea"
All my dances with this figure can be found at
https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#RL

On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 10:33 AM Dale Wilson via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> For those who don't know Michael, he specializes in writing and calling
> these kinds of dances.
>
> When he calls at a dance weekend, it's always an adventure, and amazingly
> enough the dances actually work!
>
> [Michael, I still remember that dance you called at Kimmswick that
> included a right-and-left that somehow happened with a couple from another
> set.]
>
>
> Dale
>
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 8:43 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Greg:
>>
>> I guess I mean dances that a caller must spend an extra bit of
>> time to visualize,  and/or to work out the teaching and/or calls
>> -- or dances that only an experienced caller can try.
>> A few examples from my dances...
>>
>> Where's Alex?
>> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Wheres
>>
>> From the Earth to the Moon and a Trip Around It
>> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Earth
>>
>> Two Orange Cats
>> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Cats
>>
>> Rusty Wheel Reels
>> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Rusty
>>
>> The Great Urbana Barn Dance
>> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Great
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 3:40 PM Gregory Frock 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Michael,
>>> I am not sure I understand the premise of the question.
>>>
>>> Breaking things down, an instructor has verbal description and
>>> demonstrations as primary tools teach a dance. If an instructor feels they
>>> cannot describe a figure adequately well verbally, they should not hesitate
>>> to demonstrate it. Any figures from the basic vocabulary, circles, stars,
>>> chains, etc would be familia
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 2:56 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
 ... to teach to reasonably experienced dancers than they are  for them
 to dance.
 ___
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 To unsubscribe send an email to
 contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net

>>> ___
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>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
>>
>
>
> --
> Penultimatum:  Surrender now or next time I threaten you I'll really mean
> it.
> ___
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[Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info

[Joe Harrington via Contra Callers]

Funny thing, I wrote the email below last Sunday and thought, do the
world's callers really want a physics calculation on their mailing list?  I
decided the better of it and didn't send it.  Ok, I guess I was wrong...

What I call support is against centrifugal force, not vertical. Of course,
there's no need to lift the other dancer, and it's a really poor idea.

As Jeff pointed out, in a fast swing, there's a lot of centrifugal force,
as seen from our rotating frame of reference in the swing.  For physics
buffs, centrifugal force increases as the square of velocity, so a swing
that goes around three times in 8 beats rather than twice (1.5x faster
rotation, the first-level "fast swing") has 2.25 times as much outward
force to support.  Estimating a 25 cm radius (about 50 cm between the
centers of mass of the two dancers, in the middles of their abdomens, which
I measured with a tape measure) and a 70 kg (150 lb) dancer, that's an
outward force for each of the two bodies of almost 390 Newtons, or nearly
90 pounds.  Much of that will be borne by the friction between the dancer's
feet and the floor, but the rest will be held by the supporting dancer(s).
How much depends on how they lean.  For a standard swing (2 rotations per 8
beats), it's just under 40 lbs.  Fortunately, you only have to hold it for
four to eight seconds at a time, or actually less as you accelerate and
decelerate inside that time, though the peak force will then be higher.

...and now I add...

Despite starting with it above, myself, I think we're somewhat misleading
ourselves with this Mv**2/r calculation.

The key thing here is that a centrifugal-force calculation (centripetal,
actually) makes some assumptions that we dramatically violate when we
dance. We are not rigid bodies. At best, we're collections of many light
rigid bodies (our bones) linked by ligaments, tendons, and muscles, and
bearing all sorts of other masses that move relative to one another,
storing momentum until we can deal with it in the next step.  We
effectively pump momentum up from our feet, into our bodies, and down to
our feet on each step. We transfer it to the other dancer through our arms
and theirs, and their back, if we have a hand there.

With that in mind, consider this model of a swing.  Each dancer's upper
half is trying to execute rigid circular motion.  Our lower bodies (hips
down) are doing something else, and half our mass is down there.  So, drop
my estimated 90 lbs to 45 just for that (I'll drop it more in a minute).
The lower half is essentially stepping a figure with 90 or 135 degree
corners on each beat.  Consider the left foot.  In a standard swing (2x in
8 beats), it is walking a square, directing momentum along the sides of the
square that the upper body picks up and turns into rotation.  Half of each
square side brings that leg closer to the middle, the other half takes it
farther away.  We land, push off, and do it again and again. That push-off
supports the centripetal needs of both legs (through the hip joint) and
some of the upper body.  If there is an outward lean off the right foot,
additional centripetal support is needed from either the legs or arms.  The
right foot is mainly a pivot, while both feet support gravitational weight.

Good dancers constantly adjust how far out their left feet land on each
step and how hard they push off, simultaneously satisfying both their
centripetal needs and the required spin rate.  This lets them control how
much inward force they draw from their feet into the upper-body rotation to
supplement the arms.  That reduces the support needed from the arms well
below 45 lbs.  It can reduce it to zero.  Tweaking the lean also adjusts
where the axis of rotation is, to balance the different masses of the
dancers and make their differing force impulses produce matched torque
impulses.  Dancers use the beat to step in sync with the other dancer's
legs, or these torque impulses would come at different times, and the swing
would wobble and fall apart, as Chris Lacey alluded to.

So, yeah, it's complicated, yet even children solve this problem when they
swing.  Everyone is an intuitive physicist!  And, each time I think about
this kind of thing, I get more amazed at the engineers who make robots.
Has anyone taught a robot to do a contra swing, yet?

--jh--


On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 3:24 PM Julian Blechner 
wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I
> teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a
> complaint about it.
>
> That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager robins
> pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place."
>
> That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting Robin's
> hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, it's not
> the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just workshopped
> the issue with my partner in the living room to test a 

[Callers] Surely thus dance has a name and author?

[Julian Blechner via Contra Callers]

Becket
A1. Circle L, Pass Thru N (or slide L to next and circle)
N Alle R 1 1/4 to long wavy line, Larks face out, Robins face in
A2. Bal, Circulate x2
B1. N B+S
B2. Larks Alle L 1.5x (or pull by)
PS
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[Callers] Re: Looking for contra dances that are more difficult .......

[Dale Wilson via Contra Callers]

For those who don't know Michael, he specializes in writing and calling
these kinds of dances.

When he calls at a dance weekend, it's always an adventure, and amazingly
enough the dances actually work!

[Michael, I still remember that dance you called at Kimmswick that included
a right-and-left that somehow happened with a couple from another set.]


Dale

On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 8:43 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hi Greg:
>
> I guess I mean dances that a caller must spend an extra bit of
> time to visualize,  and/or to work out the teaching and/or calls
> -- or dances that only an experienced caller can try.
> A few examples from my dances...
>
> Where's Alex?
> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Wheres
>
> From the Earth to the Moon and a Trip Around It
> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Earth
>
> Two Orange Cats
> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Cats
>
> Rusty Wheel Reels
> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Rusty
>
> The Great Urbana Barn Dance
> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Great
>
> Michael
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 3:40 PM Gregory Frock  wrote:
>
>> Hi Michael,
>> I am not sure I understand the premise of the question.
>>
>> Breaking things down, an instructor has verbal description and
>> demonstrations as primary tools teach a dance. If an instructor feels they
>> cannot describe a figure adequately well verbally, they should not hesitate
>> to demonstrate it. Any figures from the basic vocabulary, circles, stars,
>> chains, etc would be familia
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 2:56 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> ... to teach to reasonably experienced dancers than they are  for them
>>> to dance.
>>> ___
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>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>
>> ___
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-- 
Penultimatum:  Surrender now or next time I threaten you I'll really mean
it.
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[Callers] Re: April Fools fun

[Bob Morgan via Contra Callers]

Total Equality:

https://andrewswaine.uk/node/19

A1 People on the right chain across (as ladies' chain) (3)
Same people meet palms to palms and push off backwards and slightly to the
left (as in a ricochet hey) as the others step right behind them (2)
The others chain across, finishing meeting in the middle (3)

A2 Those in the middle (balance and) swing (8)

B1 Partner balance and swing and finish a random way around (8)

B2 Take hands in a ring of 4: balance the ring (2)
Pass through across, turning right to face back in (2)
Lines forward and back, sliding left one couple (4)

The B2 is quite cunning for a dance aimed at role swapping.

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024, 12:12 mo via Contra Callers, <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> On 2024-03-30 11:15, Bob Morgan via Contra Callers wrote:
>
> >
> > Total Equality by Andrew Swain is pretty much built for role chaos
> > even if you try to avoid it.
> >
> > There's a 28 bar dance called Bar Crawl that is meant to be danced to
> > 32 bar tunes.
> >
> > Bob
>
> Is Total Equality the 3 birds (magpies in the middle) dance? Fairly
> muddling!
>
> Judging by dancers I have watched (including 1 caller), I wonder how
> many dancers would notice the 28b dance to 32 b tune. Unless the caller
> timed it to stop mid dance.
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[Callers] Re: April Fools fun

[mo via Contra Callers]

On 2024-03-30 11:15, Bob Morgan via Contra Callers wrote:



Total Equality by Andrew Swain is pretty much built for role chaos
even if you try to avoid it.

There's a 28 bar dance called Bar Crawl that is meant to be danced to
32 bar tunes.

Bob


Is Total Equality the 3 birds (magpies in the middle) dance? Fairly 
muddling!


Judging by dancers I have watched (including 1 caller), I wonder how 
many dancers would notice the 28b dance to 32 b tune. Unless the caller 
timed it to stop mid dance.

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[Callers] Re: April Fools fun

[Bob Morgan via Contra Callers]

A medley pair with one forward and one reverse progression dance, careful
counting or observation to end everyone back where they started.

Total Equality by Andrew Swain is pretty much built for role chaos even if
you try to avoid it.

There's a 28 bar dance called Bar Crawl that is meant to be danced to 32
bar tunes.



Bob

On Fri, 29 Mar 2024, 20:44 Timothy Klein via Contra Callers, <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I have the pleasure this year of calling the Knoxville contra dance on
> Monday, April 1st ... occasionally remembered as April Fools Day.
>
> I'm taking the approach of exploring the spirit of the Fool -- challenging
> our assumptions and traditions and reminding us to smile, in spite of
> ourselves if necessary. In choosing/crafting my program, I'm looking for a
> balance of different and fun, of course.
>
> What foolish dances have you done in the past?
>
> Timothy
> Knoxville, TN
>
> P.S. Here's my "concept" list:
> * Reverse progression ("which way is up?")
> * Contra mixer ("who needs a partner?")
> * Left/Lark chain ("why do Robins chain and Larks allemand?")
> * 3 face 3 formations ("what's a partner?")
> * Crooked tunes ("why is everything 64 beats?)
> * No swing ("how far can I go before the dancers burn me at the stake?")
>
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