Re: [Cooker] User says MDK 9.2 is a backward step and requests features
In MCC - System, the icon near Choose the display manager is traffic light device with red, yellow and green lights all off. What have traffic lights in common with choosing type of login window, is again beyond my understanding, but if red light would be shining bright _on_ it could make somebody feel there is danger to go furtherMuch better would be, of course, to draw small login box there so to give some notion what it is really all about. Me i think this sort of stuff should be blocked off by OSHA type Hazardous Material signs (maybe level 4 explosives?) Possibly a good idea to ask the superuser to give the correct password before messing with the boot process
Re: [Cooker] User says MDK 9.2 is a backward step and requests features
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 07:12, Alberto Ridolfi wrote: Finally, can you go back to the old x-windows signon window. With the new one, you can only login for users that are on the list. The old one also allowed you to enter the user's name. Translation: I prefer real KDM to MdkKDM. I agree with him. MdkKDM looks like a false trail. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] User says MDK 9.2 is a backward step and requests features
On Monday 17 November 2003 02:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess you have mdkkdm. Use Mandrake Control Center-Hardware-Login Manager (or similar) to change this. (This is a change from 9.0-9.1) Nope. Look, Buchan, even you didn't remember it right; what to speak about us mortals... For some unknown reason the way how to do this is Mandrake Control Center - System - Choose the Display Manager. Why this Login Window is called Display Manager there, is beyond my understanding. I for sure wouldn't find it myself in a lifetime but somebody told me on some list (don't remember, maybe even here on Cooker). This is _so_ confusing, specially because everything other related to this login window is specified on KDE Control Center - System - Login Manager. The Mighty Ones at Mandrake could IMHO at least put the same name in MCC, to make it a bit more understandable: Mandrake Control Center - System - Choose Login Manager. Certainly putting some more understandable icon for it could help as well, instead of quite cryptic traffic lights (!) like now. I can't make out what the user is doing here. kcontrol-Administration-Login Mangager? I am sure this works. Changing type of kdm now in 9.2 leads to following actions: if user confirms he allows to re-start kdm, current KDE session is abruptly terminated (without any warning to save your job etc.), X are terminated as well and user finds himself in black textmode fullscreen with login prompt. Certainly many of new users do not even know they can start graphic GUI again with startx, and are scared up to point of re-installing or something. Yeah, maybe somebody should at least make red light glowing brightly on traffic light icon leading to change of kdm... :-) It seems the user has some X configuration issue. Nope. This seems to me being principal issue of how new things are introduced in MDK nowadays: somebody likes new thing better and wishfully thinks that everybody will. It gets never (or too less) tested how the user might get back the _old_ feature, and the procedure itself is often cryptic or even non-existant (like you can not avoid installing of bootsplash anymore). Nevertheless most people are quite conservative and for some reason want back things like they are used to. I for example wanted back correct hostname displayed on Login Screen, _and_ the clock ticking there ;-) Harry
Re: [Cooker] User says MDK 9.2 is a backward step and requests features
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Harijs Buss wrote: On Monday 17 November 2003 02:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess you have mdkkdm. Use Mandrake Control Center-Hardware-Login Manager (or similar) to change this. (This is a change from 9.0-9.1) Nope. Look, Buchan, even you didn't remember it right; Actually I do, that is the way it is on 9.1 ;-). what to speak about us mortals... For some unknown reason the way how to do this is Mandrake Control Center - System - Choose the Display Manager. Why this Login Window is called Display Manager there, is beyond my understanding. Technically, that is the correct term. KDE's terminology is wrong (and why do they call it kdm and not klm?). I for sure wouldn't find it myself in a lifetime but somebody told me on some list (don't remember, maybe even here on Cooker). This is _so_ confusing, specially because everything other related to this login window is specified on KDE Control Center - System - Login Manager. Well, you need to choose which display manager you use (in MCC), and after that you use the tools for the display manager to configure it. Just like you choose KDE/GNOME at login time, and use their tools to configure it. The Mighty Ones at Mandrake could IMHO at least put the same name in MCC, to make it a bit more understandable: Mandrake Control Center - System - Choose Login Manager. Certainly putting some more understandable icon for it could help as well, instead of quite cryptic traffic lights (!) like now. IMHO KDE is wrong, Mandrake is using the correct term. I can't make out what the user is doing here. kcontrol-Administration-Login Mangager? I am sure this works. Changing type of kdm now in 9.2 leads to following actions: if user confirms he allows to re-start kdm, current KDE session is abruptly terminated (without any warning to save your job etc.), X are terminated as well and user finds himself in black textmode fullscreen with login prompt. Certainly many of new users do not even know they can start graphic GUI again with startx, and are scared up to point of re-installing or something. Well, actually they should restart the dm service. Something broke in 9.2. Yeah, maybe somebody should at least make red light glowing brightly on traffic light icon leading to change of kdm... :-) ??? It seems the user has some X configuration issue. Nope. This seems to me being principal issue of how new things are introduced in MDK nowadays: somebody likes new thing better and wishfully thinks that everybody will. It gets never (or too less) tested how the user might get back the _old_ feature, and the procedure itself is often cryptic or even non-existant (like you can not avoid installing of bootsplash anymore). Nevertheless most people are quite conservative and for some reason want back things like they are used to. I for example wanted back correct hostname displayed on Login Screen, _and_ the clock ticking there ;-) Well, AFAIK, 9.2 defaults to kdm, not mdkkdm (which had some issues, but these were apparently corrected by updates). The initial change to mdkkdm was in 9.1, and it didn't have the problem with the dm not restarting properly. Since kdm is the default (at least on new installs, and AFAIK), you should by default be able to get your hostname and clock back. So, I think your analysis isn't totally correct. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/uL1frJK6UGDSBKcRAizsAJ9swky63FyQXHbKoIquw4DPdTVU0QCeKsHq xUYxJigaXGyxPMbak5ZUnJ4= =gppG -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] User says MDK 9.2 is a backward step and requests features
On Monday 17 November 2003 14:21, Buchan Milne wrote: Nope. Look, Buchan, even you didn't remember it right; Actually I do, that is the way it is on 9.1 ;-). Even more confusing, isn't it? :) Control Center - System - Choose the Display Manager. Why this Login Window is called Display Manager there, is beyond my understanding. Technically, that is the correct term. KDE's terminology is wrong (and why do they call it kdm and not klm?). One more principal thing is that distribution ought to be made for users, not to fight terminology or other semi-religious disputes. Who cares what is right theoretically or by historic reasons? User needs something understandable. This small window asking for username and password is named Login Window in almost every kind of system (and earlier on the text screen it used to be Login Screen). That's what it does: allows (or not) to Login. (Or Logon, depending on religion again ;-) What's wrong with calling window by it's functionality? Call simple things in simple way. KISS, it's old good working principle. on KDE Control Center - System - Login Manager. Well, you need to choose which display manager you use (in MCC), and after that you use the tools for the display manager to configure it. I understand this, but have you noticed that one and the same thing is named differently in both these places? IMHO KDE is wrong, Mandrake is using the correct term. MDK should care more to put _understandable_ term. Well, actually they should restart the dm service. Something broke in 9.2. Please register this at Anthill. I wouldn't be able to describe it in correct terms:) maybe somebody should at least make red light glowing brightly on traffic light icon leading to change of kdm... :-) ??? In MCC - System, the icon near Choose the display manager is traffic light device with red, yellow and green lights all off. What have traffic lights in common with choosing type of login window, is again beyond my understanding, but if red light would be shining bright _on_ it could make somebody feel there is danger to go further ;-) Much better would be, of course, to draw small login box there so to give some notion what it is really all about. Since kdm is the default (at least on new installs, and AFAIK), you should by default be able to get your hostname and clock back. Well... I am able now. I am learning somehow. Just the way as it happens sometimes is IMHO way too cruel for normal user coming from Windows world. Personally I will survive (I survived even JCL on IBM/360 and binary coding without any assembler when I was young :) So, I think your analysis isn't totally correct. I don't even pretend it is. Just personal impressions. Thanks for reading them :-) I have all the time this strange feeling that Mandrake could do even much better with such a minimum of CRM efforts... Hope it will happen soon ;-) Harry
Re: [Cooker] User says MDK 9.2 is a backward step and requests features
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 17 November 2003 07:21 am, Buchan Milne wrote: Harijs Buss wrote: On Monday 17 November 2003 02:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess you have mdkkdm. Use Mandrake Control Center-Hardware-Login Manager (or similar) to change this. (This is a change from 9.0-9.1) Nope. Look, Buchan, even you didn't remember it right; Actually I do, that is the way it is on 9.1 ;-). what to speak about us mortals... For some unknown reason the way how to do this is Mandrake Control Center - System - Choose the Display Manager. Why this Login Window is called Display Manager there, is beyond my understanding. Technically, that is the correct term. KDE's terminology is wrong (and why do they call it kdm and not klm?). But the user doesn't care about technicalities, they care about things working how they expect. They would expect it to be named the same in both places. - -- for a good time see www.I-Kubed.Org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/uPtFtKCOnVHrR7QRAlJ7AJ0YSkqrVAJ3OYjOhiiJfPtwQKYSnwCgiHZy 6FSQjO9HG03Q7vQ71ZpConc= =I/7T -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] User says MDK 9.2 is a backward step and requests features
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 02:59:24PM +0200, Harijs Buss wrote: I have all the time this strange feeling that Mandrake could do even much better with such a minimum of CRM efforts... Hope it will happen soon ;-) CRM == Customer Relationship Management??? I don't know if that is such an important matter, compared to some other problems Mandrake has (not talking about the financial matters, even) I think your analysis about the confusion in terminology and functionality in Mandrake is quite accurate (unfortunately). It is such a shame that MDK doesn't have the financial resources yet (I assume) to hire some experienced software quality management people to guide the well meant efforts of the internal and external developers to be more efficient in reaching a well oiled distribution making team. (I'm not implying that I know better, I just know enough to notice the lack of oil and lack of clear priorities.) For me I'd say these were the priorities I'd like to see: - work on almost any hardware or say it won't work during install. (I'm not talking about LG's faults) - Consistent configuration and hardware management tools - have one well tested desktop management system (KDE) that doesn't show any obvious flaws noticable by average users - make sure basic applications are thoroughly tested for quality, stability and performance - security updates and installation sources are stable Everything else is of course very important too, but when the basics are more stable, the whole system is more tolerant for whatever else gets installed. [/rant] ;-) Simon
Re: [Cooker] User says MDK 9.2 is a backward step and requests features
Wow, nice to see somebody from Twente NL, from Debian stronghold ;-) On Monday 17 November 2003 21:31, Simon Oosthoek wrote: CRM == Customer Relationship Management??? Yes. I don't know if that is such an important matter, compared to some other problems Mandrake has (not talking about the financial matters, even) Part of CRM is to find out what drives customer loyalty and satisfaction and use the model to maintain and improve business. This what Deno did even not being CRM specialist, simply because he could intuitively deeply feel such things. Unfortunately Deno is back in Vienna and not anymore with Mandrake. (Big mistake in my opinion...) We all feel absence of Deno because there is no sufficient replacement in company (with all regards to people working there). For example, in Deno times it probably would not be possible to have _all_ mirror definitions for urpmi on club www pages *broken* for such a long time as it is now. For me I'd say these were the priorities I'd like to see: - work on almost any hardware or say it won't work during install. (I'm not talking about LG's faults) I cannot worry about that with Mandrake. I think that hardware recognition and use is one of strong aspects of Mandrake Linux. LG scandal is IMHO simply bad luck - shit happens as we all know. Nobody can test all combinations of hardware components. After all LG has agreed it's their fault, and these dead drives are quite easily repairable. (I have one too :) Otherwise I have sometimes wondered what strange hardware zoo combinations are nevertheless correctly recognized by Mandrake installation. Well, I normally use PowerPack which has more drivers than download edition. - Consistent configuration and hardware management tools These things get really better from version to version, except some quick decisions like with kdm... - have one well tested desktop management system (KDE) that doesn't show any obvious flaws noticable by average users Now this depends mostly from KDE people ;-) I do not know who is to blame about disappearing KDE 3.1.3 menus in MDK 9.2, but this is *major* source of disappointment and certainly very annoying behavior. At the moment my KDE has stopped to display active programs on tasklist, despite all checkmarks correct in KDE Control Center... sigh. - make sure basic applications are thoroughly tested for quality, stability and performance Agree. That would be Good Thing. However good QC is expensive. Total QC is unreachable even for very big companies because of almost unpredictable human side of interaction with these applications. (Somehow I often manage to get very strange crashes and errors on windows machines I sometimes have to use at work... ;-) However, basic level of QC should involve at least confidence that all apps can be launched and start to work. My 4-year old grandson discovered yesterday that TuxRacer doesn't work anymore (in 9.2 with all current updates) and was very, very sad about that. Thanks God that at least Frozen Bubble was still OK ;-) - security updates and installation sources are stable Agree. At least there _are_ security updates for Mandrake and they are mostly available. At least after some delay after e-mail announcing them... Everything else is of course very important too, but when the basics are more stable, the whole system is more tolerant for whatever else gets installed. Let it be, let it be... :-) Harijs
Re: [Cooker] User says MDK 9.2 is a backward step and requests features
Harijs Buss escribió: However, basic level of QC should involve at least confidence that all apps can be launched and start to work. My 4-year old grandson discovered yesterday that TuxRacer doesn't work anymore (in 9.2 with all current updates) and was very, very sad about that. Thanks God that at least Frozen Bubble was still OK ;-) Either remove .tuxracer/options or change data_dir to /usr/share/games/tuxracer/. (Yes, I know that you *shouldn't* have to do it, but it'll make your grandson happy). Bye -- - Yo también quiero una Europa libre de Patentes de Software - - I want a Software Patents Free Europe too! And you? - --- EuropeSwPatentFree - http://EuropeSwPatentFree.hispalinux.es pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] User says MDK 9.2 is a backward step and requests features
On Tuesday 18 November 2003 00:57, Luca Olivetti wrote: Either remove .tuxracer/options or change data_dir to /usr/share/games/tuxracer/. (Yes, I know that you *shouldn't* have to do it, but it'll make your grandson happy). Thank you VERY MUCH!! :-) Removing .tuxracer/options was enough. Sure Tux created new one by default on first start and now it works great. Besides, now I know how to change screen resolution for TuxRacer (it's simply written in options file, surprisingly in plaintext :) Some small clever guy of age 4 will be very happy when visiting us next time ;-) It's good to get accustomed to those penguins starting from small age, isn't it? :))) Harry
Re: [Cooker] User says MDK 9.2 is a backward step and requests features
I have reloaded the packages for KPPP 1 and KAddressBook 2
to my system. KAddressBook did find all my e-mail
addresses. Incidently, I also lost the game Freecell. 3
My bigger problem is I can't connect to my ISP through
my modem. The connections got lost when I upgraded. I
did use the config tool to setup the internet
connection, but none of my programs (Kmail, pan,
galleon, mozilla, opera, etc.) can connect, and all
report that they are unable to connect to the
requested host. 4
Finally, my SCSI devices have disappeared. My swap
file is on the SCSI drive, so this is a potential
problem. At least I have 512 meg of memory. 5
-]
addressing the issues
1 package not installed old package removed during upgrade
2 see 1
3 Freecell (another package removed?)
4 auto connect does not work (on my system the setup wizard nukes the /dev/ttyS1 node and does nothing else)
so yes you would need to do a forced dial to make things work {unless AnyDrakes have a few ideas not to include the wizard}
5 moved node/ not installed node problem check the /dev chain ie is the scsi card installed??
Re: [Cooker] User says MDK 9.2 is a backward step and requests features
Hello guys, I give support at MandrakeExpert and there was an incident created by an user very dissatisfied with Mandrake Linux 9.2. If you guys want to take a closer look, the incident number is 72784. The user says after upgrading to Mandrake 9.2 from Mandrake 9.0 he's lost a lot of features and customization he'd made. In answer to him, I said I would forward his complains about mdk 9.2 to Cooker guys to try to improve the next version. What do you guys think about his opnions? Do you think these things can be changed? Below is the message transcript. Later, Alberto M. -- I just installed Mandrake 9.2 over my 9.0. I have lost the following functions, and I want them back. kpp - I had a button on my pannel to launch kpp to dial my isp. Now there is no function there. Some large KDE packages were split into smaller packages. This is a good thing, since now you can install kmail without having to install potential security risks (like pppd which is required by kppp), for instance in an office where no-one has a modem. You don't need the scanning libraries just to install a screenshot tool. Yes, unfortunately this causes a bit of pain for end-users installing software which disappears. Superuser file manager - There was a superuser file manager under the file manager section of my start menu. It is now gone. What is the function that it linked to so I can get it back and manipulate the files as root without haveing to mess around with an su in a terminal somewhere? No idea why this was removed, after we actually fixed them to work correctly (use filemanagement profile and work in non-KDE desktops). For now, drag/drop your Home icon to the desktop, right-click-properties-execute-run as-root. Kmail address book is gone - Kmail is now asking for an address book. I want the one I was using before. See (1). Under the configuration menu the login manager asked for the root password and let me do useful stuff. The new version doesn't. The Administration button was still there last time I looked. So far, I consider 9.2 a major step backward. I have to send this message from Windows. [after, he sent another one]: I have reloaded the packages for KPPP and KAddressBook to my system. KAddressBook did find all my e-mail addresses. Incidently, I also lost the game Freecell. My bigger problem is I can't connect to my ISP through my modem. The connections got lost when I upgraded. I did use the config tool to setup the internet connection, but none of my programs (Kmail, pan, galleon, mozilla, opera, etc.) can connect, and all report that they are unable to connect to the requested host. Finally, my SCSI devices have disappeared. My swap file is on the SCSI drive, so this is a potential problem. At least I have 512 meg of memory. What SCSI controller is it? Are any errors listed in dmesg? Please help. I have to use Windows whenever I want to go to the net, and I can't install my Win4Lin until I get the internet connection back up to get the latest modified kernel from Netraverse. No need for this, win4lin kernels are available in contrib (and thus PowerPack/ProSuite). Finally, can you go back to the old x-windows signon window. With the new one, you can only login for users that are on the list. The old one also allowed you to enter the user's name. I guess you have mdkkdm. Use Mandrake Control Center-Hardware-Login Manager (or similar) to change this. (This is a change from 9.0-9.1) I was hoping to change the window, or at least add root to the list by using the login manager from the desktop manager (don't you think this should be in the configuration manager too?), and selected the administrator button. The window appeard to allow me to enter the root password. The main window went blank and said loading. But then it blinked for a minute. I could see that the text boxes were active. Then almost instantly, it went blank again, and the window was as it is when the program starts. So I cannot change the login interface. I can't make out what the user is doing here. kcontrol-Administration-Login Mangager? I am sure this works. It seems the user has some X configuration issue. Try starting a terminal, and running: $ su # kcontrol I'm guessing it can't connect to the X server (no idea how he got it that way ...). Is there some way to get rid of the background on all the pseudo terminals on F1 through F6? Edit /etc/sysconfig/bootsplash (and make the obvious change) Can the startup and shutdown all be set to default to verbose mode? Add 'splash=verbose' or 'splash=0' to the append options in the bootloader. The new kde icons look like they were stollen from Windows XP. Any way to go back to the old ones? KDE Control Center-LooknFeel-Icons ? I can't remember what 9.0 had by default, maybe we didn't have Crystal back then? It does look to me as though you rushed this to the
Re: [Cooker] User says MDK 9.2 is a backward step and requests features
On Sunday 16 November 2003 06:12 pm, Alberto Ridolfi wrote: Hello guys, I give support at MandrakeExpert and there was an incident created by an user very dissatisfied with Mandrake Linux 9.2. If you guys want to take a closer look, the incident number is 72784. The user says after upgrading to Mandrake 9.2 from Mandrake 9.0 he's lost a lot of features and customization he'd made. In answer to him, I said I would forward his complains about mdk 9.2 to Cooker guys to try to improve the next version. What do you guys think about his opnions? Do you think these things can be changed? Below is the message transcript. Later, Alberto M. -- I just installed Mandrake 9.2 over my 9.0. I have lost the following functions, and I want them back. kpp - I had a button on my pannel to launch kpp to dial my isp. Now there is no function there. Superuser file manager - There was a superuser file manager under the file manager section of my start menu. It is now gone. What is the function that it linked to so I can get it back and manipulate the files as root without haveing to mess around with an su in a terminal somewhere? Kmail address book is gone - Kmail is now asking for an address book. I want the one I was using before. Under the configuration menu the login manager asked for the root password and let me do useful stuff. The new version doesn't. So far, I consider 9.2 a major step backward. I have to send this message from Windows. [after, he sent another one]: I have reloaded the packages for KPPP and KAddressBook to my system. KAddressBook did find all my e-mail addresses. Incidently, I also lost the game Freecell. My bigger problem is I can't connect to my ISP through my modem. The connections got lost when I upgraded. I did use the config tool to setup the internet connection, but none of my programs (Kmail, pan, galleon, mozilla, opera, etc.) can connect, and all report that they are unable to connect to the requested host. Finally, my SCSI devices have disappeared. My swap file is on the SCSI drive, so this is a potential problem. At least I have 512 meg of memory. Please help. I have to use Windows whenever I want to go to the net, and I can't install my Win4Lin until I get the internet connection back up to get the latest modified kernel from Netraverse. Finally, can you go back to the old x-windows signon window. With the new one, you can only login for users that are on the list. The old one also allowed you to enter the user's name. I was hoping to change the window, or at least add root to the list by using the login manager from the desktop manager (don't you think this should be in the configuration manager too?), and selected the administrator button. The window appeard to allow me to enter the root password. The main window went blank and said loading. But then it blinked for a minute. I could see that the text boxes were active. Then almost instantly, it went blank again, and the window was as it is when the program starts. So I cannot change the login interface. Is there some way to get rid of the background on all the pseudo terminals on F1 through F6? Can the startup and shutdown all be set to default to verbose mode? The new kde icons look like they were stollen from Windows XP. Any way to go back to the old ones? It does look to me as though you rushed this to the field, and did not do complete testing. This is the kind of thing I expect from Microsoft. Based on my understanding, there is not much here that was not a design choice by mdk. icons, login manager, superuser filemanager, problems caused by KDE package splits, no root login, etc., etc. These can all be fixed just by manually changing the configuration or installing packages. The modem and scsi issues seem like real problems, but I don't have any answer for them. -- /g Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book, inside a dog it's too dark to read -Groucho Marx
